May 2009: Kazuo Ishiguro: The Remains of the Day

[Libra]

^^LOL

It does sound a bit snooty but it's the only way he knew and along comes this bantering American.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Libra

^^LOL

It does sound a bit snooty but it's the only way he knew and along comes this bantering American.

I should have been specific. I was speaking of an exchange between Stevens the idiot and Miss Kenton. I don't wish to be more specific because it's near the end of the story and I don't wish to spoil it for others.

[Libra]

Originally Posted by Robert

I should have been specific. I was speaking of an exchange between Stevens the idiot and Miss Kenton. I don't wish to be more specific because it's near the end of the story and I don't wish to spoil it for others.

Yes,you should have.lol

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Libra

Yes,you should have.lol

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you have never made a mistake.

[Libra]

Originally Posted by Robert

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you have never made a mistake.

I always make mistakes.

[Comeflyaway]

Originally Posted by Libra

^^LOL

It does sound a bit snooty but it's the only way he knew and along comes this bantering American.

I think it's kind of cute how preoccupied he is with practicing "witticisms," lol. Reminds me of trying to fit in in middle school.

And yes, Robert, I totally agree with you

[SFG75]

Originally Posted by Libra

I know I am going a bit back but,I did like the comparison of his English employer to his American employer and the different styles of manner in which they acted.I sensed that he found his English employer more with class and a more proper way of employer/emploee relations.

To me, this was best illustrated in his description of working for the American in the beginning. He was shocked by his employer's comments and referenced one particular instance where the American suggested to the butler, that he take a lady guest out for a roll in the hay. I did like the instance where he tried to engage in banter with the American, only to have the American confused about what he was trying to relate about the migratory pattern and gypsies. A dry sense of humor no doubt.

[beer good]

I'm about 55 pages in, just past the long discussion of what makes a great butler and the question of dignity, and it struck me that there's another work which came out the same year which seems awfully familiar in some of its themes - they're far from identical, but there are a couple of lines here that really seem to fit Mr Stevens and his dying world.

Dignity
Bob Dylan

Fat man lookin' in a blade of steel
Thin man lookin' at his last meal
Hollow man lookin' in a cottonfield
For dignity

Wise man lookin' in a blade of grass
Young man lookin' in the shadows that pass
Poor man lookin' through painted glass
For dignity

Somebody got murdered on New Year's Eve
Somebody said dignity was the first to leave
I went into the city, went into the town
Went into the land of the midnight sun

Searchin' high, searchin' low
Searchin' everywhere I know
Askin' the cops wherever I go
Have you seen dignity?

Blind man breakin' out of a trance
Puts both his hands in the pockets of chance
Hopin' to find one circumstance
Of dignity

I went to the wedding of Mary-lou
She said "I don't want nobody see me talkin' to you"
Said she could get killed if she told me what she knew
About dignity

I went down where the vultures feed
I would've gone deeper, but there wasn't any need
Heard the tongues of angels and the tongues of men
Wasn't any difference to me

Chilly wind sharp as a razor blade
House on fire, debts unpaid
Gonna stand at the window, gonna ask the maid
Have you seen dignity?

Drinkin' man listens to the voice he hears
In a crowded room full of covered up mirrors
Lookin' into the lost forgotten years
For dignity

Met Prince Phillip at the home of the blues
Said he'd give me information if his name wasn't used
He wanted money up front, said he was abused
By dignity

Footprints runnin' cross the silver sand
Steps goin' down into tattoo land
I met the sons of darkness and the sons of light
In the bordertowns of despair

Got no place to fade, got no coat
I'm on the rollin' river in a jerkin' boat
Tryin' to read a note somebody wrote
About dignity

Sick man lookin' for the doctor's cure
Lookin' at his hands for the lines that were
And into every masterpiece of literature
for dignity

Englishman stranded in the blackheart wind
Combin' his hair back, his future looks thin
Bites the bullet and he looks within
For dignity

Someone showed me a picture and I just laughed
Dignity never been photographed!
I went into the red, went into the black
Into the valley of dry bone dreams

So many roads, so much at stake
So many dead ends, I'm at the edge of the lake
Sometimes I wonder what it's gonna take
To find dignity

Nothing big, but I just thought I'd post that.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by beer good

I'm about 55 pages in, just past the long discussion of what makes a great butler and the question of dignity, and it struck me that there's another work which came out the same year which seems awfully familiar in some of its themes - they're far from identical, but there are a couple of lines here that really seem to fit Mr Stevens and his dying world.



Nothing big, but I just thought I'd post that.

Thanks, beer good. They seem to fit very well.

[Libra]

Originally Posted by SFG75

To me, this was best illustrated in his description of working for the American in the beginning. He was shocked by his employer's comments and referenced one particular instance where the American suggested to the butler, that he take a lady guest out for a roll in the hay. I did like the instance where he tried to engage in banter with the American, only to have the American confused about what he was trying to relate about the migratory pattern and gypsies. A dry sense of humor no doubt.

Yes,those two instances were very funny.I didn't know who to laugh at more,Stevens and his swallows comment due to migration ,or the dumbfounded American who probably had a face like this..


beergood,it's not a small thing either,I find musicians like Bob Dylan and others like him,sang songs that had more meaning than music of today,again bringing the subject up to how things were in the past and longing for those dying days.


The story with his father was,not confusing,but I tried to be in that situation in my mind when he had to tend to the General.Supressing emotions is very hard to do but he does go into detail about only an Englishman can be a true butler because of this trait,being able to do the job without outside interferance.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Libra

The story with his father was,not confusing,but I tried to be in that situation in my mind when he had to tend to the General.Supressing emotions is very hard to do but he does go into detail about only an Englishman can be a true butler because of this trait,being able to do the job without outside interferance.

What makes Stevens interesting (to me) is how he has allowed social norms to dictate who his he. He has build his facade of dignity to the exclusion of everything else so that he is completely unprepared when he encounters the American with a different set of expectations. He can't even allow himself a life beyond his role of butler.

[Libra]

Originally Posted by Robert

What makes Stevens interesting (to me) is how he has allowed social norms to dictate who his he. He has build his facade of dignity to the exclusion of everything else so that he is completely unprepared when he encounters the American with a different set of expectations. He can't even allow himself a life beyond his role of butler.

I find that this happens to alot of people,maybe not to this extreme,but living a life by "social norm" or what others may think,and not living life to its fullest.
Again I think it's how this is the only way they know or to circumstances surrounding them.

I am enjoying this butler more and more.

[Comeflyaway]

I was really struck by the idea of what might have been. The whole novel, he's very certain about what a good butler is and what is dignified and he structures his entire life and self around these ideas. It's not until the end that I think he starts to see that his way is not the only way, that life might have turned out differently. I doubt he would do anything differently if given the chance, and I'm not even saying that he should, but I just thought that his realization that he could have had a warmer relationship with his father or ended up with Miss Kenton was poignant. I'm not even sure if he really had that realization or if I just interpreted his thoughts in that direction, but I dunno. Just seems very sad to me.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Comeflyaway

I was really struck by the idea of what might have been. The whole novel, he's very certain about what a good butler is and what is dignified and he structures his entire life and self around these ideas. It's not until the end that I think he starts to see that his way is not the only way, that life might have turned out differently. I doubt he would do anything differently if given the chance, and I'm not even saying that he should, but I just thought that his realization that he could have had a warmer relationship with his father or ended up with Miss Kenton was poignant. I'm not even sure if he really had that realization or if I just interpreted his thoughts in that direction, but I dunno. Just seems very sad to me.

It is sad. Stevens is getting ready to return to Darlington Hall and he's starting to make mistakes just like his father at the opening of the book. It's not Miss Kenton/Mrs Benn has has an empty life ahead, is it?

Just as sad is what transpired with his father shortly before he passed. He had one question that he wanted to answer, a kind of closure I believe, and Stevens couldn't answer it. How sad is that?

[SFG75]

Robert

What makes Stevens interesting (to me) is how he has allowed social norms to dictate who his he. He has build his facade of dignity to the exclusion of everything else so that he is completely unprepared when he encounters the American with a different set of expectations. He can't even allow himself a life beyond his role of butler.

I am reaching the same conclusion as I read further and further. At first, you get the whole professionalism line from him and then eventually, more personal information is dribbled out by him to the reader. The Miss Kenton part was a bit complicated for him. Yes, he perhaps could've had a life with her, but she was one who would try and break the facade. She pointed out that his father wasn't up to par any more when he didn't want to face it. Ultimately, his employer mentioned something, but that only forced him to face up to what she was saying about him. He really demonstrated no desire to look at his father's state critically as Miss Kenton had to drag him out to see the misplaced and unpolished items that were his responsibility.

Robert

Just as sad is what transpired with his father shortly before he passed. He had one question that he wanted to answer, a kind of closure I believe, and Stevens couldn't answer it. How sad is that?

That whole evening was truly something else. He was definitely pressed professionally and personally. The saddest line to me was when he responded so stoically to the news that his father passed and then rationalized it away saying that his father would've wanted him to continue. As if treating some fellow's feet takes a greater precedence over the death of one's father. Wow, talk about repressed emotions and feelings!