Pease explain why this is art.

Jemima Aslana said:

There's something called The Art of War, Martial Arts etc. These are 'arts' too one might say, but they too include the destruction of people and property which is not acceptable, but this does not take away from the fact that they are still art forms.
Two entirely different levels here

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Are you sure!

Jemima Aslana said:

but it still would not be acceptable, because this art would still entail harm to someone else's property.

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What about the guy who peed on a statue of the virgin mary as art? He peed on somebody else's property and called it art.

Destroying art is still art.

that reminds me, didn't someone once deface the American flag and call it art?

blurricus said:

What about the guy who peed on a statue of the virgin mary as art? He peed on somebody else's property and called it art.

Destroying art is still art.

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It can be, yes, but that does not mean it's an acceptable action.

I will not condone an action that destroys someone else's property just because it's art. It may be art - fine - I won't challenge that, but that doesn't mean it's immediately a-ok.

Jemima Aslana said:

I will not condone an action that destroys someone else's property just because it's art. It may be art - fine - I won't challenge that, but that doesn't mean it's immediately a-ok.

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Just out of curiousity, this isn't a trap or anything, but I found the wording of your answer strange. I am just curious for clarification, because either way you answer this will be interesting.

Will you condone an action that destroys someone else's property for any reason?

I'm trying to roll the idea around in my head, seeing if I can think of a reason. I'm sure there's gotta be some far-fetched one out there. Like maybe popping the tires on somebody's car because you knew they were going to do something or other that would be far more damaging to somebody else. Any other good examples?

before i donate my 2 cents on this, a quick intro:
i am trained in the neo-classical system of art -- realist nude ladies and antigravity togas are, in fact, what does it for me. i'm not a fan of modern or 'contemporary' art, and dadaism specifically.

now... onto the soap box i go.

what we are looking at here in this fountain is a wonderful example of, as was mentioned before, a STATEMENT. it is a visual communication of the time, the place and the person that created it. what it is is secondary.

once upon a time (say... 200 years ago...), people more often painted and sculpted stories and characters in religion and history. because these were common known topics at the time, the viewers of that day didn't need to really interpret too hard, as the knowledge required to place the scene before them was something the common people shared. or, they were looking at a portrait, which was generally a pretty picture of a person...

but, lo and behold, with the industrial revolution comes a shift in perspective. the art itself becomes more and more irrelevant (sp?) in favour of the thoughts and ideas of the artist. enter expressionism, surrealism-- approaches that emphasise what is to be FELT as opposed to what is to be SEEN. enter modernism and all its cronies, and the whole thing gets flipped upside down-- not just feelings anymore, but really SAYING something.

now, art is rarely about what you're looking at. it's not even about what the ARTIST was looking at. it's about making the statement first. with this stuff having been around for a while, the statements are starting to get REALLY out there (i.e. foil wrapped buildings, red glaciers, etc). we're loosing touch with the meanings behind the older stuff because the statments made back then don't apply as much any more.

what remains true in all cases of art, new and old, contemporary or otherwise, is that the art we buy is often bought for its conversational value. that said, this urinal is more than just a urinal, its a story. i have no idea what that story is myself... if i had to make one up on the fly (no pun intended) it would probably start with the invokation of a rabbi, a priest and a buddhist monk, but that's just me.

i can only wish that someday i will have enough dough in the bank to afford me so frivolous an expendature.

</end soapbox>

Nice job Staceass. From a conversational viewpoint this urinal has had more conversational value here at TBF than any other piece or art on the planet. At least as long as I've been a member here.

However...I will still not look at a urinal as a piece of art. That's just me and I'm sticking to it.

Yesterday, however I saw one of these. Number 16 of 50 that were made. I saw it up close and in person. Live. Not at a car show or anything. In a parking lot at the library of all places. I got to talk to the guy who was driving it. The car was for sale. Absolutely gorgeous. It was a greenish color. Now this, this is art.


Can be yours for about $225,000 US.

That goldfish thing makes my blood boil. I wish I would have been there to steal the privately owned carafe before any ..... too offended for words.

staceass said:

nude ladies...does it for me.

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That's what I say, too.

staceass said:

now, art is rarely about what you're looking at. it's not even about what the ARTIST was looking at. it's about making the statement first. with this stuff having been around for a while, the statements are starting to get REALLY out there (i.e. foil wrapped buildings, red glaciers, etc). we're loosing touch with the meanings behind the older stuff because the statments made back then don't apply as much any more.

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Should it, art I mean, have anything to do, at least, with aesthetic value? The statement only doesn't always justify its sense of beauty in itself, I suppose?

I thought all the above opinions boiled down to the conception of what is art? I checked the dictionary.com, here it goes:

# Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature.
# 1. The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty, specifically the production of the beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium.
2. The study of these activities.
3. The product of these activities; human works of beauty considered as a group.

# High quality of conception or execution, as found in works of beauty; aesthetic value.

Is art just a label that can be freely sticked to anything that any artist claimed to be?

staceass said:

what remains true in all cases of art, new and old, contemporary or otherwise, is that the art we buy is often bought for its conversational value. that said, this urinal is more than just a urinal, its a story....

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Emm, about the story/narrative point of view, any particular theory behind it?

Crystal said:

Is art just a label that can be freely sticked to anything that any artist claimed to be?

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a label, yes. and a very personal one at that.
the definition of "art", though, is as contraversial a topic as the one we're having here. the question "what is art?" vs "what is not art?" has been increasingly harder to answer concretely for some time now. the truth is that the only true answer is unique to each person, as pertaining to his or her taste or experience.

i could understand what novella was explaining on the first page... but i wouldn't consider it art either. altho i must say, its a nice looking urinal

XD. We studied that in art history; it was sort of supposed to be a joke and challenge the idea of what art is. Judging by your response to it, it has clearly done its job, art or not art.

Here's another.

Worth 1.5 million dollars?????

What am I missing here? Is this one of those things where if you stare at it long enough at the right angle and squinting you can visualize some really cool hidden image?

I just don't see what could be worth 1.5 million here?????

Anybody care to enlighten me? Can anybody enlighten me?

Motokid said:

Here's another.

Worth 1.5 million dollars?????

What am I missing here? Is this one of those things where if you stare at it long enough at the right angle and squinting you can visualize some really cool hidden image?

I just don't see what could be worth 1.5 million here?????

Anybody care to enlighten me? Can anybody enlighten me?

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Couldnt tell you moto as i shake my head from side to side

Frankenthaler is regarded as one of the most influential second generation US abstract expressionist painters.

The Bay, one of her most celebrated works, is thought to be one of the most valuable paintings in the museum's collection.

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The Bay is thought to be one of the most valuable paintings in the museum's collection?????

This all makes me feel like I should have saved my finger paintings from kindergarten. A trip to the right city and I'd be a wealthy man right now.

I can't say what I think about this: I might get a warning.

CDA said:

I can't say what I think about this: I might get a warning.

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That's ok, your opinion came through loud and clear anyway Sometimes less is plenty!

There is an opportunity here, Moto. When I was growing up, they had those long urinals in public places like the drive-in theatres. Those things were long enough that eight or ten good size guys could stand shoulder to shoulder to take care of business at the same time.

What we need to do is find one of those, toss in some soggy cigarette butts, perhaps a used condom, syringe, and perhaps toss in a copy of the bible. Add a few well placed pipes and it’s off to Paris we go to make millions. Toss in an American flag and we could double its value.