School Shootings~

Another school shooting--this time in PA; 4 in the space of 3 months.

What is the reason?

Will there be a fifth school shooting? And if there is, where will it be?

Might want to have this one moved to the mature discussion section.

In regards to the topic, recent news stories have it that this guy is trying to avenge some past wrong. Who knows if he was wronged by a Quaker or not. I'd wager that he is very mentally ill and as such, was one who fell through the cracks of society. I would be very shocked if he hadn't been institutionalized at least once in his life.

they aren't quaker, they are amish. that is what really got me - reading a headline that a milkman lost it at an amish school and killed at least 4 children. how sad. i can't imagine what those gentle, sweet people could do to provoke someone to that kind of rage. they are so meek and humble.

lady.cordelia said:

they aren't quaker, they are amish.

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Ahhh yes, had another thread on my mind at the time. Very sad day indeed, and to think, all some people did was to go to school.

still altogether just too sad.

and you are so right. most tragic events are filled with the same daily event of just going about your regular business and wham! so sad.

So: American gun laws.

Must you really have guns outwith hunting groups and police?

I think this is what stood out most for me:

Roberts was apparently preparing for a long siege, arming himself with a 9mm semiautomatic pistol, a 12-gauge shotgun and a rifle, along with a bag of about 600 rounds of ammunition, two cans of smokeless powder, two knives and a stun gun on his belt

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How did he get hold of all that? Didn't someone think, hang on, what does he need with that?

Honeybee said:

I think this is what stood out most for me:


How did he get hold of all that? Didn't someone think, hang on, what does he need with that?

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He may not have bought them all at the same tiime or shop. There's no telling how long he's been planning this.

Stewart said:

So: American gun laws.

Must you really have guns outwith hunting groups and police?

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I agree American gun laws are insane, but I heard an interesting counterexample from Michael Moore (who I wouldn't normally turn to for a well-reasoned argument): the gun ownership rates in Canada are higher even than in the US, and yet their gun crime rates are far lower. Moore's explanation for this was that US society was far more divided between the haves and have-nots, so there was more reason to go around shooting people. I doubt this applies to this tragedy, but it's an interesting point.

There's a Your Say section on the BBC site about US (lack of) gun control. You have a lot of frickin' idiots over there who banter on about how owning a gun is a freedom under the Second Amendment.

Of course, with a proper crime fighting force, there's little need for Americans to be making a posse, vigilante squad, or "militia" any more and so such actions are surely unlawful. So, given that you no longer need guns, why not just amend the constitution again?

Stewart said:

There's a Your Say section on the BBC site about US (lack of) gun control. You have a lot of frickin' idiots over there who banter on about how owning a gun is a freedom under the Second Amendment.

Of course, with a proper crime fighting force, there's little need for Americans to be making a posse, vigilante squad, or "militia" any more and so such actions are surely unlawful. So, given that you no longer need guns, why not just amend the constitution again?

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I think one big factor against such an amendment is cold hard fear; fear of finding ourselves under a tyrannical government and having to arm ourselves against said government and their policing agencies. The right to bear arms is considered sacred by many, even those who would scoff at that religious terminology. Don't worry though, ya'll can have our two BB guns if you want!

abecedarian said:

The right to bear arms is considered sacred by many, even those who would scoff at that religious terminology.

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But the reason to bear arms was to fight back against the Britons who, over two hundred years later, are no longer enemies. Kill a Brit now and you'll find it's illegal. Owning a gun in this day and age, without reason, should be an offence.

Your media raves about terrorism threats as if there is actually much need for concern, when the biggest threat to the safety of American citizens is their antiquated constitution. (And obesity; but that's another thread. )

Stewart said:

But the reason to bear arms was to fight back against the Britons who, over two hundred years later, are no longer enemies. Kill a Brit now and you'll find it's illegal. Owning a gun in this day and age, without reason, should be an offence.

Your media raves about terrorism threats as if there is actually much need for concern, when the biggest threat to the safety of American citizens is their antiquated constitution. (And obesity; but that's another thread. )

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I think the founding fathers would be shocked to see how prone to violence we are these days..on one hand..on the other hand I think we've always had it in us. Don't know what the solution is from a legal standpoint, but I'm glad to see it being discussed.

Besides, I don't think we're so worried about the Britons anymore...

Guns are a part of it, but I don't believe that it's the main part of the problem. He would've obtained the weapons no matter what. The black market, stealing, "borrowing" from family, etc. On top of that, the guy is just sick. That has been clearly outlined in a report of his letter where he wanted to barricade himself in the building to assault the kids. He engaged in prior criminal actions in the past and wanted to act them out again. This isn't a societal problem with guns as it is a personal psychological one.

SFG75 said:

He would've obtained the weapons no matter what. The black market, stealing, "borrowing" from family, etc.

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I don't believe this assumption. By having proper controls in place, nutjobs like him are restricted in the avenues they can approach in order to obtain such weapons.

Notions such as borrowing from family are negated by making gun ownership illegal, since the family wouldn't have any guns to lend. Stealing, with no guns around, would have him having to thieve from the police, the military, or gangsters. I doubt many would fancy this proposition.

Regarding the black market, I don't buy that people could easily find themselves guns there. Prices, no doubt, would rise since they wouldn't be so easily available. To get such things on a black market, you would no doubt need connections to find them. Places aren't exactly going to have 'Smith & Son, Black Marketeers' above their shop.

And some of the weapons you guys have on sale too, what purpose do they serve in the public's hands? If you must have some sort of weapons then what's wrong with tranquilisers and stun guns? Do you need automatic machine guns, etc. ?

This isn't a societal problem with guns as it is a personal psychological one.

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The guy had a lot of weaponry. Since I'm not au fait with the procedures to procure a gun, can someone give answers to the following questions:

• What psychological checks are there in place for one seeking to obtain a gun?
• What's the turnaround in application to receipt?
• Do you have to give reasons why you need one?
• Is there a set period where re-assessment of either the weapon or the person is necessary?
• Are gun ownership records federal knowledge, or is governed on a state by state basis?
• What's the legal age for gun ownership?
• Is there a maximum amount of weaponry that one can own?
• How much do bullets cost?

I doubt very much that gun ownership will ever become totally illegal in the US. As long as there are hunters and livestock owners, the NRA will have a platform. I know personally of folks who have needed a gun to protect livestock from wild dogs, coyotes, and other predators. They and the average gun user, are not the problem.

I think it should be as difficult for the average person to buy a gun as it would be to obtain dynamite. Ranchers, hunters, people who actually have a legitimate purpose for owning a firearm, could be determined and controlled. Those who say they fear "gun control" are being disingenuous. It's insane. People here who feel they must own a handgun in this day and age are lacking something deep inside, a basic trust in themselves and other humans. We have adequate law enforcement for the most part and the extraneous fire power is just a hallmark of deep insecurity and disturbed thinking.

Flor

People here who feel they must own a handgun in this day and age are lacking something deep inside, a basic trust in themselves and other humans.

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I do not lack trust in myself, just crazy assholes like the man who did the shooting not only at the Amish school, but the school shooting that took place in Colorado last week.

Watch the news...you want to know why I lack basic trust in most humans:

1. Algeria Insurgency 1992 -->
2. Angola Cabinda 1975 -->
3. Burma Insurgency 1950 -->
4. China Senkaku Islands 1968 -->
5. China Spratly Islands 1988 -->
6. Colombia Insurgencies 1970s-->
7. Congo (Zaire) Congo War 1998-->
8. Georgia Civil War 1991-->
9. India Assam 1985 -->
10. India Kashmir 1970s-->
11. India Naxalite Uprising 1967 -->
12. Indonesia Aceh 1986 -->
13. Indonesia Kalimantan 1983 -->
14. Indonesia Maluku 1999 -
15. Indonesia Papua / West Irian 1963 -->
16. Israel Al-Aqsa Intifada 2000 -->
17. Ivory Coast Civil War 2002 -->
18. Korea Korean War 1953 -->
19. Laos Hmong Insurgency 2000 -->
20. Moldova Transdniester 1991-->
21. Namibia Caprivi Strip 1966-->
22. Nepal Maoists 1996 -->
23. Nigeria Civil Disturbances 1997 -
24. Pakistan Baluchistan 2004 -
25. Peru Shining Path 1970s-->
26. Philippines Moro Uprising 1970s-->
27. Russia Chechen Uprising 1992 -->
28. Somalia Civil War 1991-->
29. Spain Basque Uprising 1970s-->
30. Sudan Darfur 1983 -->
31. Thailand Islamic Rebels 2001 -->
32. Turkey Kurdistan 1984 -->
33. Uganda Civil Conflict 1980 -->
34. United States Afghanistan 1980 -->
35. United States Djibouti 2001 -->
36. United States Iraq 1990 -->
37. United States Philippines 1898 -->
38. Uzbekistan Civil Disturbances 2005 -->
39. Yemen Sheik al-Houti 2004 -->


This is not an updated list of conflicts and many of these continue today.

I realize this does not relate directly to the current topic, I am showing you this simply to illustrate that your assertion about "lack of trust" is one hundred percent correct. It would be great to have trust in all our fellow men, but to do so would be naive.

Gun ownership is not necessarily a right, but a responsibility in my opinion. You should have to meet requirements just as you would to drive a vehicle. A psychological screening should also be implemented as well.

Stewart

By having proper controls in place, nutjobs like him are restricted in the avenues they can approach in order to obtain such weapons.

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I totally dissagree with this assumption.

We have been fighting a drug war for the past twenty years here in the US. There are controls in place and all avenues covered, yet I can have any drug I want with just a phone call. So how would making guns illigal different?

And to your questions:

· What psychological checks are there in place for one seeking to obtain a gun? NONE
· What's the turnaround in application to receipt? 1 hour to 2 to 3 days, depending on where purchased. Also criminal record comes into play here. Certain crimes, i.e. domestic violence = no legal gun ownership rights.
· Do you have to give reasons why you need one? No
· Is there a set period where re-assessment of either the weapon or the person is necessary? No
· Are gun ownership records federal knowledge, or is governed on a state by state basis? I believe by the State.
· What's the legal age for gun ownership? Over 18 or parents consent.
· Is there a maximum amount of weaponry that one can own? No
· How much do bullets cost? Depends, for example 9mm = $13.00+ for fifty .

Stewart, your questions do bring up certain flaws in our gun ownership laws.

Justin91 said:

Stewart

I totally dissagree with this assumption.

We have been fighting a drug war for the past twenty years here in the US. There are controls in place and all avenues covered, yet I can have any drug I want with just a phone call. So how would making guns illigal different?

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Hey, that's cool.

Everywhere, to be fair, is fighting a drug war of its own. Recently, where I live, an eleven year old girl made international news for a heroin overdose in school. Yes, you are never going to cover all the avenues to prevent a black market in trading weapons, but by criminalising weaponry the avenues are immediately cut. There will still be people who go out of their way to obtain such things but the difference would be that they were doing it outwith the law; if caught, they face jail. That's a big disincentive right there.

Stewart, your questions do bring up certain flaws in our gun ownership laws.

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I think the one about someone under 18 can have a gun if their parents give consent is a worry. What need would someone of that age need a gun for? Lessons needed, perhaps, in showing that guns aren't about fashion. A good start would be to remove such imagery from music videos.

The real flaw is that this loony was out in society for so long. His mental condition(or the lack thereof) is the cause of this mess, not the gun. Same thing when someone mows down a bunch of pedestrians with his car. Are we going to restrict the sales of cars or sue GM?