September 2008: Ivan Turgenev: Fathers and Sons

Discussion on this book starts 1st September, 2008.

I'm thrilled that this book is our BOTM. I read it months ago and just loved it. The Turgenev wiki page has a lot of great information about him. I have read elsewhere that other novelists such as Dostoeyvsky didn't have a good relationship with him, viewing him as being too *western* or not that great of a writer. The one thing about Fathers and Sons that comes out quite often is that Turgenev couldn't win for trying. Bazarov was viewed by conservatives in Russia as being a glorified radical and that the lead character's father was a caricature of the older Russian conservatives. Radicals and those on the left felt Bazarov wa an insulting depiction of them, while the older generation was venerated. Put all that together and it's easy to see why Turgenev became frustrated.:lol:

I just finished Rudin, an earlier, less popular novel by Turgenev. It is not overtly political, yet Rudin is almost entirely a character study, a depiction of an eloquent romantic who is all words and no deeds. But Turgenev is so wonderfully fair. At first Rudin's dramatic oratory holds our interest, but we gradually grow to dislike him. At the end, Turgenev shows us a man who is his own worst enemy.

Last month's BOTM, Sons and Lovers, was very tedious to me. But I didn't realize how much it had turned me off until I started reading Turgenev's Fathers and Sons. Before I got to the end of the first page of Fathers and Sons I knew it would be a book I would enjoy. I was not to be disappointed.

I just finished Fathers and Sons last night and thoroughly enjoyed it. I thought the character development was superb, and I especially loved Pavel.

I found the relationship between Arkady and Bazarov interesting--especially how it disintegrated at the end.

Read a little bit of the first part of the book last night. I forgot how close Arkady and Nikolai truly were. Turgenev was criticized for bringing out EVERY small detail there was in his writing, but I really liked it as I felt it was just being descriptive and it could bring you the moment to a "t" so to speak. Nikolai's embrace of Arkady and fussing over him so much is something that I could definitely see. When you have kids, I think you can identify a moment where you are very enmeshed with your child and are so happy with their success or to see them do something new, that you are worked up into a tizzy. I have a similar feeling when the wee ones are playing coach pitch baseball or soccer.:lol: It's tough to convey to a person without kids, there is just a deep connection th at really can't be described between father and son and Turgenev does a god job of bringing it out.

Arkady reminds me of people who are caught between two worlds. I have known some who are caught between ethnic worlds and feel confused as to which one they "belong" to. Arkady has the same feeling, but more along an intellectual philosophy of life tack. A lot of reviews of Fathers and Sons mention Turgenev trying to draw the line between the conservative "Slavophile" tradition, which emphasizes spirituality and traditional Russian values, as opposed to the younger set, which is ardently liberal. One interesting term for Bazarov that I discovered was "first bolshevik." I don't know if that is most appropriate as *nihilism* pops up in the book from time to time, but perhaps to conservatives, anything that far left was nihilism. Arkady loves his father and like a lot of people, holds their views. At the same time, Bazarov is the model of the "new order" of thinking and he is drawn to the appeal of the liberal/radicals. In other words, Bazarov is talking about his generation. More reading to do tonight....

What struk me about the story was the way the older generation was viewed by Bazarov and Arkady (under bazarov's influence). Their belief that the younger generation is so much better and that the latest theories are so superior that there is nothing in Nikolai's generation worth saving seems to me to be a timeless, universal truth.

I thought it was interesting that the way Turgenev described the peasants of the era was very similar to the way Tolstoy wrote about them in Anna Karenina.

I have also read the book and also thoroughly enjoyed it. It is an excellent pick for botm!!!

You gotta love Bazarov's care free personality exhibited in chapters 5 & 6. His behavior also showed the lack of "proper" respet to his elders, though choosing to be out capturing frogs with peasant kids and delaying his hosts for awhile, was quite a hoot to read about. Arkady's definiton of nihilism also gives some good food for thought.

A nihilist is a person who does not take any principle for granted, however much that principle may be revered

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I have read Fathers and Sons several times over the years, and each time I go back to it I am more impressed by the characterization of Bazarov. No wonder both sides (the traditionalists and those wanting change) were angry at Turgenev's presentation of the nihilist.

"A nihilist is a person who does not bow down to any authorities; who doesn't accept any principle on faith , no matter how hallowed and venerated that principle may be."

There is also a rejection of science "in general" although it is admitted that some occupations, for example, pharmacy, may be useful.

We have to sympathize with these two young men who are driven by the corruption and hypocrisy of their times to reject all tradition, all authority. Except that they can't bring it off. Bazarov may reject science in general, but he studies frogs, a study with no clear utility. Later, of course, he assists his father in his medical practice, even though he claims not to believe in it.

Think about the titile, Fathers and Sons. This is a broader story than a conflict about social or political or scientific principles. It is the inevitable conflict between the generations. The boys suffer from being young, absolute, without the experience to sift out the principles worth keeping from those to be abandoned. In time, of course, their lives do the sifting for them.

It hasn't been my favorite reads,I am pushing myself to read it, finish the last 80 pages.The only part I liked was the conversation between Bazarov and Anna,on his visit at her place.

I have to say that the last hundred pages for me were better, and the whole story and each character came together as it was supposed to.I will definitely give it a second read one day.

It is nothing new, generation after generation ,kids always want to be their own person, they know more then their parents, they want independence,freedom, and the world too.

I think Arkady wanted to be free (in his mind) from his fathers way of life, that he found an independence in Bazarov and just stuck with him.

What puzzles me in Anna, did she love Bazarov or not? She kept telling him to stay even though I think she really didn't love him. It confused me.

Libra said:

What puzzles me in Anna, did she love Bazarov or not? She kept telling him to stay even though I think she really didn't love him. It confused me.

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My interpretation of her was that she was repelled by sex (after her marriage) and, still more important, wanted to keep control of her life. She enjoyed having Bazarov around, but was avoiding any sort of emotional involvement.

silverseason said:

My interpretation of her was that she was repelled by sex (after her marriage) and, still more important, wanted to keep control of her life. She enjoyed having Bazarov around, but was avoiding any sort of emotional involvement.

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He fell for her though, do you think she lead him on? just for the conversation/company and did not use emotions to persuade him? I found at moments she was very upset when he would leave or mention leaving.

I'm new to the forum and was quite pleased to see *Fathers and Sons* by Ivan Turgenev as your book of the month. I just recently bought this book..(i can't wait to read it!) I love Turgenev's work I also bought *The Torrents of Spring, First Love, and Mumu*..which is three classic Russian novellas by Turgenev..i actually started reading this at the store.:lol: i'm already captivated by the characters.
i've already read *Home of the Gentry*...*Dream Tales and Prose Poems* by Turgenev...(excellent poetry by the way).

It would be great if you would join our discussions Star.

Star - Welcome aboard.

I'm afraid we are not doing too well on our discussion of this month's BOTM. I for one have not been able to find the time to post :sad:. As Libra suggests, it would be great if you would join the discussion. I'm sure you would find it rewarding.

oskylad said:

Star - Welcome aboard.

I'm afraid we are not doing too well on our discussion of this month's BOTM. I for one have not been able to find the time to post :sad:. As Libra suggests, it would be great if you would join the discussion. I'm sure you would find it rewarding.

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Come and post when you have time.

I started reading this, but gave up at about the half way mark. It started off brilliantly, but I got bored very quickly with the political debates. Knowing that politics was the basis of this novel, I decided to give up rather than force myself to wade through it - too many other books out there that I want to read.

I guess another major reason that I gave up on it was because of Bazarov. I found his character extremely annoying - not just unlikeable. I guess it's a testament to Turgenev's writing that a character was able to elicit such a response for me, but I just couldn't stand the guy any longer.

Ivan Turgenev: Fathers and Sons

My interest in Russian literature has been piqued recently after reading books such as The Idiot, Crime and Punishment, The Brothers Karamazov, Notes from Underground, Taras Bulba and other Tales, One Day in the Life of Ivan Denishovich and several others.

So today while browsing a used bookstore when I came across "Fathers and Sons" by Ivan Turgenev I decided to pick it up.

What an incredible book! I expected Fathers and Sons to be nothing like it was when I opened it. I read the entire book within a few hours while absolutely enthralled. I could easily compare this to "The Brothers Karamazov" (obviously not in scope but at least in quality) which I would definitely call my favourite book.

However after reading the book I have a question. The back of the book I purchased (Oxford world classics edition) claims that many Russians of the time were hostilely critical of the character "Bazarov", why would this be? I found Bazarov to be a very interesting character and I was truly saddened by his death at the end of the book.

Thanks for reading.