The slow lingering death of fantasy writing.

[mgarratty]

I recently read a very interesting article about the way fantasy writing has been going in the the last decade or so and though the authors opinions are rather harsh I feel I agree with most of what he says - I thought some of you guys would find it interesting and hope it might provoke some good discussion ... here's the link and a taster...

....heroic fantasy has grown fat. Bloated. We're not talking a few extra pound around the waist, here: we're talking serious glandular problems, shopping at special stores for the larger individual. We're talking about Robert Jordan and George R. R. Martin and David Eddings, with their three or five or ten book series, each volume in the series containing seven or eight or nine hundred pages of plodding prose, dull exposition, unresolved plot threads and attempts to conjure up a sense of wonder so badly executed as to signal the final, lingering demise of the genre.
http://www.spikemagazine.com/1002fantasydiet.php

My early reading was nearly all fantasy and I devoured it voraciously - Stephen Donaldson, Tolkein, Raymond E Feist etc - I recently tried reading the new Covenant book (Runes Of The Earth) and found it dull, and dragged out affair, maybe it's an age thing, I haven't the leasure time I had when I was younger to plough through 100's of pages, I get impatient nowadays with slow plots. I've started reading the Fantasy Masterworks series and find these much more interesting.

I've read threads here about Robert Jordan and others and there are obviously devoted fans out there.

What do you all think about about fantasy writing nowadays?

Mark

 

[rune]

There are a lot more authors out there than the ones mentioned in the article. I think newer fantasy writers are fresher and dont seem to write such long series.

Also you can easily find good epic authors such as Robin Hobb, Sarah Zettle, Sarah Ash and a few more that dont write like the main stream, more well known epic authors.

I do believe that those authors may have had their day. However, I dont believe fantasy as worn itself out. There are a lot of fantasy authors that I feel are fun, exciting, have great imaginations and still make fantasy fun to read

 

[mgarratty]

There are a lot of fantasy authors that I feel are fun, exciting, have great imaginations and still make fantasy fun to read

I'm sure you are right - I find there is so much of it (epic fantasy) nowadays it can be a bit of a gamble as to the quality when buying a book by an author you've not read before, it makes deciding on something to go for a bit daunting.

 

[rune]

I'm sure you are right - I find there is so much of it (epic fantasy) nowadays it can be a bit of a gamble as to the quality when buying a book by an author you've not read before, it makes deciding on something to go for a bit daunting.

That's why I try and get first books for series I've not tried before from my library Saves me money if I dont like it and also I dont bother buying anymore in that series.

 

[Ainulindale]

That article has been discussed somewhat widely among genre circles, and although in most cases he is right, some examples he uses show he is more ring to make a broad point than dispalying he has any idea what the hell he is talking about in regards to any knowledge that lies below anything anyone can read about in any random internet search about the genre found online.

I can go on and on, and both Matt Cheney and Alien Online have commented on this article (2 sources that do have some merit in the genre, and actaully sho knowledge of it). Here is the Alien Online link Alien Online response (I can't find Cheney's response)

Are there a lot of bad, overbloated series (particulary in epic fantasy)? Yes, but his article does nothing but state that and offers nothing more afterwards than mindless rhetoric and the opinion of his brother who is as insignificant as he is. It's a old topic, and one that has been discussed and written about by a great many more people than him who actually seem to know what their talking about. This article looks like a high school assignment.

 

[Sean Harnett]

Hi everyone

My name is Sean Harnett, author -- for my sins -- of The Modern Fantasy Diet (hereafter, TMFD). Mark, who started this thread, invited me to drop by and maybe contribute something to the discussion, which I'm happy to do.

It seems, however, as if there has already been plenty of discussion of my article on the Internet/blogsphere in the last two years, all of which I was completely unaware of. Apart from one or two emails, I received no feedback about TMFD and thought I had posted it only for it to be forgotten.

If only I'd known!

So, at the suggestion of Ainulindale (great user name, by the way), I checked out the posting on The Alien Online in which Ariel gave her opinion of the article (http://www.thealienonline.net/blog/2005_03_01_tao_book_archive.asp). I thought it was a harsh but mostly fair critique that did me the service of pointing out at least two major flaws in my argument.

First, Ariel is correct to sanction me for failing to mention the economic pressure on writers -- across all genres -- to compete in a 3-for-2 marketplace, in which a big book in a long series is seen as more value for money than a slim, stand-alone book. This is an important point, and one I intended to address in a follow-up article to TMFD that I have, however, yet to get around to finishing ...

Second, Ariel also calls me on the fact that I seem to suggest that all big fantasy books are innately bad, by virtue of being big books. I did not intend to mean this at all. That Ariel interpreted me as arguing for this is due to infelicities in my prose, infelicities I'm ashamed slipped through the editing process! Suffice to say that I do not believe that this is the case.

However, I'm afraid I cannot agree with Ariel's defense of George Martin. In fact, it was my experience of reading the third part of his Songs of Fire and Ice series that prompted me to write TMFD. Quite simply, I was unable to finish the book, and I asked myself why, considering that it had all the elements I look for in my fantasy fiction: a huge scope, dynastic intrigue, hints of an older history, an Ranger-like/Jedi-like organisation of initiates, etc, etc. My answer was that the book was simply too bloated; I felt it could have been pruned to two-thirds or even a half of its original size, and not lose anything. It might even have gained something from such editorial attention.

At around the same time, I picked up the first volume of the collected Conan stories by Robert E. Howard, and was simply enthralled by what I found. In contrast to much of the other fantasy I was encountering at the time, the stories seemed fresh, innovative, and genuinely affective, which was ironic considering their provenance. Plus, none of the stories ever out-stayed their welcome, which, after my attempts to finish huge tomes by Jordan, Martin, etc, seemed like a great courtesy on the author's behalf.

Since then I mostly given up reading modern fantasy. In the past two years, my reading in the genre has consisted of Hope Mirless (a priceless discovery; I would urge anyone in any way interested in fantasy fiction to seek out and read Lud-in-the-Mist), Gustav Meyrink, anything by Alan Garner, an English author of really exceptional children's books soaked in the blood of English/Welsh mythology and folklore, Charles Williams, who was a friend of Lewis and Tolkien but far stranger, and probably more interesting, than either of his friends, and David Lindsay, who has a legitimate claim to the status of being the "modernist William Blake."

This probably gives a good idea of my tastes. If anyone on this list could point me in the direction of any writer of modern fantasy who writes in the above vein, I'd be very grateful.

And, I'd be interested in writers of series of books as much as one-offs. Just as I am not innately prejudiced against big books, so I am not averse to reading series of books. Interestingly, another book I read at the time of my disillusionment with George Martin was Master and Commander, the first book in the Maturin/Aubrey series by Patrick O'Brian. I think that fantasy writers could take inspiration from O'Brian, for his skill in writing a series in the Homeric mode that never feels either stale or bloated, and which, moreover, can be read as a sequence or as a series of stand-alone novels.

Anyway, looking forward to your feedback.

Regards

- Sean

PS - I think the title Mark choose for this thread, "The slow lingering death of fantasy writing", is a tad ... well, hysterical (sorry Mark). Writing/telling stories in a fantastic mode is an impulse as old as storytelling itself, and one that will continue as long as humans tell stories. What worries me is not, then, the death of the genre, but its ghetto-isation.

PPS - Ariel also says that I have missed the point of Moorcock's Eternal Chamption, which is probably true. Though, to be fair, I didn't realise there was a point to the EC, except for paying Moorcock's mortgage. (I have a love/hate relationship with the great bearded one: love Gloriana/Jerry Cornelius/some of his London novels; hate just about everything else ... .)

 

[Shade]

I think this is one of the most depressing things I've ever read:

the economic pressure on writers -- across all genres -- to compete in a 3-for-2 marketplace, in which a big book in a long series is seen as more value for money than a slim, stand-alone book

If writers are really sitting down at the desk, cracking their knuckles, and thinking first and foremost of the marketplace, shouldn't they have their consonant keys surgically removed?

 

[Toadal]

Ariel also calls me on the fact that I seem to suggest that all big fantasy books are innately bad, by virtue of being big books. I did not intend to mean this at all

I should think so too! Of course, the truth is that all big fantasy books are innately bad, by virtue of being fantasy books.

 

[mgarratty]

PS - I think the title Mark choose for this thread, "The slow lingering death of fantasy writing", is a tad ... well, hysterical (sorry Mark).

Sean - thanks v.much for the reply to the post and apologies for the tone if the title - it was not my intention to sound hysterical - and reading it again I can see that's how it may come across.

I can see that it is difficult to be critical of modern fantasy writing without being critical of the writers themselves and acknowledge that in genre fiction commercial considerations are always going to be important. However I would agree with Shade that it's a shame if said commercial concerns dictate the quantity and quality of the writing.

Ainulindale - thanks for the links ot the other posts - I'm off to read them with great interest now.

Mark

 

[Ainulindale]

First, Ariel is correct to sanction me for failing to mention the economic pressure on writers -- across all genres -- to compete in a 3-for-2 marketplace, in which a big book in a long series is seen as more value for money than a slim, stand-alone book. This is an important point, and one I intended to address in a follow-up article to TMFD that I have, however, yet to get around to finishing ...

Second, Ariel also calls me on the fact that I seem to suggest that all big fantasy books are innately bad, by virtue of being big books. I did not intend to mean this at all. That Ariel interpreted me as arguing for this is due to infelicities in my prose, infelicities I'm ashamed slipped through the editing process! Suffice to say that I do not believe that this is the case.

I admire anyone who can view critique (in this case critique that seems very rational and admit there relevance. Very admirable

However, I'm afraid I cannot agree with Ariel's defense of George Martin. In fact, it was my experience of reading the third part of his Songs of Fire and Ice series that prompted me to write TMFD. Quite simply, I was unable to finish the book, and I asked myself why, considering that it had all the elements I look for in my fantasy fiction: a huge scope, dynastic intrigue, hints of an older history, an Ranger-like/Jedi-like organisation of initiates, etc, etc. My answer was that the book was simply too bloated; I felt it could have been pruned to two-thirds or even a half of its original size, and not lose anything. It might even have gained something from such editorial attention.

Although I do disagree with you; this is just a personal opinion on a series and there certainly is nothing wrong with that. I will say - if your would have left Martin's name off that list, the articles probably would never have been circulated, as most would agree the other examples (as woudl I), and your statements (even though they were rather broad IMHO)

At around the same time, I picked up the first volume of the collected Conan stories by Robert E. Howard, and was simply enthralled by what I found. In contrast to much of the other fantasy I was encountering at the time, the stories seemed fresh, innovative, and genuinely affective, which was ironic considering their provenance. Plus, none of the stories ever out-stayed their welcome, which, after my attempts to finish huge tomes by Jordan, Martin, etc, seemed like a great courtesy on the author's behalf.

If you enjoyed Howard's Conan work, you may enjoy his Solomon Kane work, a nice collected editon of these stories can be found in The Savage Tales of Solomon Kane. You may also enjoy Karl Edward Wagner Kane novels about Kane (another one) a nice collected edition was published by Nightshade books entitled The Midnight Sun: The Complete Stories of Kane. Another option is of course Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar work (there are several stories in various formats), or perhaps The Outlaw of Torn by Edgar Rice Burroughs.

Since then I mostly given up reading modern fantasy. In the past two years, my reading in the genre has consisted of Hope Mirless (a priceless discovery; I would urge anyone in any way interested in fantasy fiction to seek out and read Lud-in-the-Mist)

Agreed, a classic in every sense of the word.

If anyone on this list could point me in the direction of any writer of modern fantasy who writes in the above vein, I'd be very grateful.

I have a lot of modern recomedations that are virutally free of any epic styled fantasies on a list of 200 (with small description and synopsis) Half of them are listed HERE, which will have a link to my older 101 list. The link here has more modern works however.

Ariel also says that I have missed the point of Moorcock's Eternal Chamption, which is probably true. Though, to be fair, I didn't realise there was a point to the EC, except for paying Moorcock's mortgage. (I have a love/hate relationship with the great bearded one: love Gloriana/Jerry Cornelius/some of his London novels; hate just about everything else ... .)

I like all of Moorcocks work personally but agree with you in that his Cornelius work is fantastic as is Gloriana, I love Mother London as well, and would highly recommend his controversial Behold the Man

 

[mgarratty]

David Lindsay, who has a legitimate claim to the status of being the "modernist William Blake."

This probably gives a good idea of my tastes. If anyone on this list could point me in the direction of any writer of modern fantasy who writes in the above vein, I'd be very grateful.

I've just recently finished reading A Voyage To Arcturus - (I splashed out on the Savoy hardback issue) and though it was one of the best fantasy books I've read in a long time.

I'd also recommend Jeffrey Ford (if you're not familiar with him?) - not mainstream type fantasy but similar to Jonathan Carroll but much better in my opinion.

Mark

 

[Toadal]

Ainulindale

Interesting to note from your signature that you are interested in speculative fiction.

Have you heard of the British writer SEAN WRIGHT who places himself at the forefront of the new wave of speculative fiction?.

He has written books like Dark Tales of Time and Space and The Twisted Route of Jaarfindor, both of which speculate a great deal in places.

He has a website.

 

[Sean Harnett]

I should think so too! Of course, the truth is that all big fantasy books are innately bad, by virtue of being fantasy books.

Toadal, I know you were probably being glib, but this perfectly illustrates my point about the ghetto-isation of fantasy.

That is, when most people nowadays think of the fantasy genre, they think of a certain kind and style of writing that is dismissed as having, at best, dubious literary quality.

Unfortunately, this prejudice judges the vast range of fantasy writing based on a few, unrepresentative samples, and leads to the identification of all fantasy writing, regardless of its quality, as being not worth reading -- simply by virtue of being marketed as a fantasy book. This means that writers of genuine quality, such as Gene Wolfe or John Crowley, are ignored because, well, they write fantasy books, don't they?, and everyone knows fantasy books are rubbish ... .

As for the discussion of the place of commerce in the life of a jobbing writer, I haven't seen anyone define it better than Neal Stephenson (author of Snow Crash, and The Quicksilver Cycle), in an interview he did for SlashDot. Scroll down to his answer to Question 2: http://interviews.slashdot.org/interviews/04/10/20/1518217.shtml?tid=192&tid=214&tid=126&tid=11

- Sean

 

[Ainulindale]

The problem being discussed regarding many opinions of epic fantasy and the stigma associated with it and its perpetuation is spoken at great by Moorcock in his essay HERE (particulary the last page)

I'd also recommend Jeffrey Ford (if you're not familiar with him?) - not mainstream type fantasy but similar to Jonathan Carroll but much better in my opinion.

Both of whcih are excellent writers by any definition or category. I finally read Ford at the behest of an author I interviewed recommending him. His collection Fantasy Writer's Assistant is incredible.

Interesting to note from your signature that you are interested in speculative fiction.

Perhaps, I don't see why as all it is a generic term denoting science fiction, alternative history, horror and fantasy, along with their related sub-genre's.

Have you heard of the British writer SEAN WRIGHT who places himself at the forefront of the new wave of speculative fiction?.

Only on a peripheral level, so to answer your question, yes I know he exists, but I have not read his work, but perhaps I may approach him for a review copy, thanks for the info. Since I haven't read hs iwork I can't comment or offer an opinion on the legitmacy of a new wave of speculative ficton or his place in it. I think someone would have to talk to China Mieville or Jeff VanderMeer before making a claim like that.

 

[Sean Harnett]

If you enjoyed Howard's Conan work, you may enjoy his Solomon Kane work, a ncie collected editon of these stories can be found in The Savage Tales of Solomon Kane. You may also enjoy Karl Edward Wagner Kane novels about Kane (another one) a ncie collected editon was published by Nightshade books entitled The Midnight Sun: The Complete Stories of Kane. Another option is of course Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar work (tehre are several stories in various formats), or perhaps The Outlaw of Torn by Edgar Rice Burroughs.

Ainulindale

Thank you for your kind comments, and for your book recommendations.

It looks like we may agree more than we disagree, because I've checked out the list of books on your blog and I have read (or want to read!) most of the same books as you.

We may still have to agree to disagree about George R.R. Martin, however.

- Sean

 

[theallseeingeye]

Hello Toadal, yes I know of Sean Wright. He is one of the most interesting speculative fictioneers in the East Anglia region today. His website is actually a spoof, but he has a great fansite.

http://jessejameson.blogspot.com

If you like his stuff you may like mine! I have posted a piece on Writer's ShowCase.

Thankx!

 

[Toadal]

Wow, that's some site! To be quite frank with you, eye (can I call you 'eye'?) I think Wright's books are shit. But I will read your story with interest.

Many thanks

Terry Oadal.

 

[mgarratty]

I have a lot of modern recomedations that are virutally free of any epic styled fantasies on a list of 200 (with small description and synopsis) Half of them are listed HERE, which will have a link to my older 101 list. The link here has more modern works however.

Thanks for the replies and a great site you have - my wishlist on Amazon is just about to increase by about 50 titles after reading you're top 100 list - only 50 because the other 50 I've read already and they would be in my top 100 also.

It appears it's the case that there are in fact many excellent authors out there writing excellent. original exciting books in the fantasy/SF/speculative fiction fields (I don't think these categories help, distinctions help) but they do not get the notice and publicity they deserve and that the more mainstream epic series appear to get.

 

[theallseeingeye]

That's amazing! My wishlist on Amazon is just about to increase by about 1 title after reading your top 100 list - only 1 because the other 99 I've read already and they would be in my top 100 also!

 

[Ainulindale]

Thanks for the kind words

Thanks for the replies and a great site you have - my wishlist on Amazon is just about to increase by about 50 titles after reading you're top 100 list - only 50 because the other 50 I've read already and they would be in my top 100 also.

That's amazing! My wishlist on Amazon is just about to increase by about 1 title after reading your top 100 list - only 1 because the other 99 I've read already and they would be in my top 100 also!

Hmmm...Don't forget there is 200! A list on my blog and a different list at FBS!

My Blog list is HERE. New this week, with 102-200!

And my prior 101 list is Here

It appears it's the case that there are in fact many excellent authors out there writing excellent. original exciting books in the fantasy/SF/speculative fiction fields (I don't think these categories help, distinctions help) but they do not get the notice and publicity they deserve and that the more mainstream epic series appear to get.

Well in all honesty, the epic series get more attention because they are simply, and overwhelmingly more popular; I do like a great deal many epic series (Martin, Bakker, Erikson currently) but admittedly find the vast majority of them to be sub-par, some dramaticaly so. Trust me it pains me a as a fan of fantasy (a long time fan) and makign a list of my 200 favorite series/novels and seing epic fantasy so badly represented especially considering they represent the vast majority of the genre.

Wow, that's some site! To be quite frank with you, eye (can I call you 'eye'?) I think Wright's books are shit.

LOL


Sean, it I who should apologize, my mannerism are often bombastic, I am glad however you decided to comment.