Wess Roberts: Leadership Secrets of Attila the Hun

[SFG75]

I remember when this book first came out and it was a cult favorite in business and education administration circles. I went to a huge book sale this past weekend and finally got a copy of this book.

The author freely admits taking some liberty with the "facts" of Attila's leadership points. Each chapter is a slim few pages with stand alone bulleted items to highlight important concepts. One of the early items that was a bit surprising, was the focusing on not forcing things to happen, but rather, to wait until the right time to assume leadership. Roberts highlighted Attila's time as a "prisoner" in a Roman court. While he loathed the Roman lifestyle, he made it his goal to learn everything he possibly could about the Roman civilization in order to conquer it. Likewise, I have heard from innumerable people in management positions, how and why they decided to make the jump that they did. I believe this early emphasis on timing will stand out to anyone who has done the same thing. A great example of this would be to have the desire to become a manager after being under a completely incompetent person.

Other key concepts including rewarding people based on merit, not on closeness to you and not feeling threatened by such underlings. Roberts says Attila would utilize a more *constructive* relationship withe lower leaders, as opposed to strict discipline. To him, Attila had to have used a lot of time to help groom leaders and to help them progress. I found this a bit "touchy feely" to believe about the old big guy, but who am I to argue? Who is John Galt?

This book contains some pithy pointers to definitely think about if you are in the business world or if you hold a management position in other work settings. This would be an incredible book to read among co-workers and managers respectively. I will say however, that I was terribly disappointed in the lack of commentary regarding how to pillage, sack, plunder, and obtain the nickname "scourge of God" by those who have the unfortunate circumstance of crossing you.

 

[thischarmingman]

actually sounds excellent.

I remember when first came out and it was a cult favorite in business and education administration circles. I went to a huge book sale this past weekend and finally got a copy of this book.

The author freely admits taking some liberty with the "facts" of Attila's leadership points. Each chapter is a slim few pages with stand alone bulleted items to highlight important concepts. One of the early items that was a bit surprising, was the focusing on not forcing things to happen, but rather, to wait until the right time to assume leadership. Roberts highlighted Attila's time as a "prisoner" in a Roman court. While he loathed the Roman lifestyle, he made it his goal to learn everything he possibly could about the Roman civilization in order to conquer it. Likewise, I have heard from innumerable people in management positions, how and why they decided to make the jump that they did. I believe this early emphasis on timing will stand out to anyone who has done the same thing. A great example of this would be to have the desire to become a manager after being under a completely incompetent person.

Other key concepts including rewarding people based on merit, not on closeness to you and not feeling threatened by such underlings. Roberts says Attila would utilize a more *constructive* relationship withe lower leaders, as opposed to strict discipline. To him, Attila had to have used a lot of time to help groom leaders and to help them progress. I found this a bit "touchy feely" to believe about the old big guy, but who am I to argue? Who is John Galt?

This book contains some pithy pointers to definitely think about if you are in the business world or if you hold a management position in other work settings. This would be an incredible book to read among co-workers and managers respectively. I will say however, that I was terribly disappointed in the lack of commentary regarding how to pillage, sack, plunder, and obtain the nickname "scourge of God" by those who have the unfortunate circumstance of crossing you.

 

[chiangmaifalcon]

I read both this book and the second book, More Leadership Secrets of Attila the Hun. At the time I read them I was in a supervisory position and found them to be helpful, but I think more based on common sense than Atttila the Hun. I have read much about the Huns and Attila and I do not believe his leadership principles had much in common with those described in the books.

 

[burnsrunner]

Nice

I liked a lot of the topics covered in the book. I was wondering if there is a specific business/book related thread, maybe with a list of good books to review.

 

[boros1124]

Hun

Hi!

I would like to recommend to the attention of a contemporary Hungarian writers.

Andrew Bardos presenter who initially had. Here you will find a book, which also is a famous Hungarian man.

 

[chiangmaifalcon]

I read both of these boks when I was watch commander at the prison. I feel it was very informative and interesting, although as other posting says it is not entirely historical. One thing I have found is while these principles worked very well in NY prison, they do not work at all here in thailand.

 

[SFG75]

. One thing I have found is while these principles worked very well in NY prison, they do not work at all here in thailand.

I could see how the writings would work in prison. The criminal minded are big time into hearing things plainly and rather bluntly. Obfuscation, or coloring what it is that you want frustrates them and sends the signal that you are afraid of confrontation. In light of that, the Attila book would be very wise to operate from in general in that setting. I would be curious to learn how you have found that the principles in the book do not work in Thailand. Perhaps the opposite of the inmates is the case? Some cultures focus on nuance and the meaning of "little things" that others would miss out on.

 

[chiangmaifalcon]

Business principles are very different here. For instance, I know of case where manager promoted worker who did a good job. The worker who got promoted was very angry as now he was over the other workers and they would not talk to him, so he quit. You cannot under any circumstances tell boss any idea or criticism. Thais do not take criticism well, even if constructive. if they do things a certain way, they will not change or do it differently. if you tell them they have to do it differently they will quit. Also, western managers here make mistake thinking the Thai workers get bored if they have nothing to do. They are very happy having nothing to do. I am not saying they will not work hard, as many of them work very hard. However, they are not like in US where workers want to keep busy. If there is no work, they just go to sleep. The most important thing in Thailand is called sanuk, which sort of means fun. This even applies to work. If you can joke with the workers, let them have music or radio and food to eat, then they will be satisfied at work. This is as important here as pay. Thai people hate confrontation. I work as volunteer for police department here. There was another foreigner police volunteer who was fired by police dept. He kept coming to work everyday anyway. Everyone was afraid to tell him he was fired and do not come anymore. For same reason, to avoid confrontations if employee quits they usually will not tell you. They just never come back. In business, or anywhere for that matter, you cannot show anger or raise your voice. This makes everyone lose face. guy who gets angry and other guy who made him get angry. This was very hard for me at first, as in prison I got angry all the time and it was okay. However, on the plus side I did learn to control my temper. if not, I could not stay in business.

 

[SFG75]

Thanks for the detailed reply, it was quite telling. I had a general idea that "saving face" and eschewing conflict were some of the things that you have faced in Thailand. The business books that I have read have a definite cultural consideration in them, I don't believe there is one out there that could be used in a universal context. The Art of War has been adopted widely in military settings, that would perhaps be the one candidate, if there would be one, when it comes to being feasible in workplaces around the world. It would would work at least, until gentle persuasion came down to push and shove.

 

[753C]

Thais do not take criticism well, even if constructive. if they do things a certain way, they will not change or do it differently. if you tell them they have to do it differently they will quit. Also, western managers here make mistake thinking the Thai workers get bored if they have nothing to do. They are very happy having nothing to do. I am not saying they will not work hard, as many of them work very hard. However, they are not like in US where workers want to keep busy. If there is no work, they just go to sleep. The most important thing in Thailand is called sanuk, which sort of means fun. This even applies to work. If you can joke with the workers, let them have music or radio and food to eat, then they will be satisfied at work. This is as important here as pay.

I think I might be Thai. My parents never told me..... :lol:
Seriously though I might really fit in there. Maybe i'll move....

 

[chiangmaifalcon]

Very interesting replies. especially considering I just spoke with another farang who also has small business here and he also stated he thought The Art of War was one book that could apply in Thailand or US or anywhere. Also 753 I just saw comedy movie on tv and American guy in movie finds out from father his real mother was hooker from Bangkok. Movie is called Deuce Bigelow and is very funny.

 

[753C]

I have seen that one! It is funny. Your comment that if they didn't have anything to do they would fall asleep was hilarious because that is what I do. Whenever I start a job I always look around to see if there is a quiet out of the way place where I can take a nap if I need to. :whistling:

 

[SFG75]

chiang-I'm very curious now. How in the world would an employee who needs a "talkin to..." be given one? Is it kind of like the sandwich model of discussion, where you pay a compliment, lay out the uncomfortable item, and then provide another compliment?

 

[chiangmaifalcon]

I recently had to do this and I just said mainly something like this. "You are doing very good job but I am sad now because of what you are doing and if you stop doing this I will stop being sad." It worked out pretty well but I know what you mean about example you gave and have done this also. What my wife does is if she is upset with one of the girls, she says "Paun is very angry about what you are doing", even if she is really the one who is angry. Sometimes I know nothing about what it is I am supposed to be angry about. This way no one actually yells at employees and she gets to make me the bad guy.

 

[SFG75]

I recently had to do this and I just said mainly something like this. "You are doing very good job but I am sad now because of what you are doing and if you stop doing this I will stop being sad." It worked out pretty well but I know what you mean about example you gave and have done this also. What my wife does is if she is upset with one of the girls, she says "Paun is very angry about what you are doing", even if she is really the one who is angry. Sometimes I know nothing about what it is I am supposed to be angry about. This way no one actually yells at employees and she gets to make me the bad guy.

The "good cop" plays a good role, no doubt about that.:whistling:

A lot of what you have posted about reminds me of the "coming along side" school of thought in which encouragement and goal setting takes precedence over punishment.