Nosferatu Man
New Member
Uh-oh, before I click those links I've got a terrible feeling that my dreams are about to be shattered.
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Somethings missing....
- Thread starter cervantes
- Start date
Nosferatu Man
New Member
I read the summary on the Slimey one, but that didn't change my mind. I didn't think it was mind-blowingly inspirational either. I read nigh on all of the essay by Gene Hargrove and found it pretty interesting, but I still think Tulkas is my man. Although Aulë is a close contender, I feel more comfortable with Tom Bombadil being an incarnation of Tulkas. I didn't agree with Gene Hargrove where he wrote that, '...Tulkas, the best fighter among the Valar, moreover, is probably too warlike to be Tom.' I just didn't see Tulkas like that. I know he's extremely strong, etc. but I look past that to his humour and innocence. Somebody stop me!
Sniffles
New Member
Tom isn't powerful, i think that he doesn't fight because he is afraid of things, his power was great, but he set his borders and his power dwindled because he didn't need to use it, so he could be tulkas rencarnated, but tulkas did love a good fight so he would not have settled somwhere he didn't need to.
Nosferatu Man
New Member
Sorry, I absolutely disagree. Tom was the most powerful being in Middle-Earth. Saying that Tom isn't powerful is a bit ridiculous: he displays the greatest strength in the whole story when he messes about with the Ring in his house. I think he didn't fight because he wasn't afraid of things. As opposed to his powers dwindling, I think they grew (or stayed the same strength) because he didn't waste them on fruitless activities. I think if he were afraid of things, he would have been more inclined to destroy them so he wouldn't have to worry about them anymore. That's how I think anyway. For example: I'm not afraid of anybody, and if somebody decided to try and rip my head off as I was walking along the pavement, I'd just walk away and not worry about them. I certainly wouldn't go and kill the bastard. That's pretty much what Tom is like I reckon.
As far as Tulkas goes, I think he much preferred humour to fighting. But, I agree that I don't know why he made his own borders. I haven't thought about it much to be honest, and I might come up with a different statement in a future episode.
Welcome to the forum.
As far as Tulkas goes, I think he much preferred humour to fighting. But, I agree that I don't know why he made his own borders. I haven't thought about it much to be honest, and I might come up with a different statement in a future episode.
Welcome to the forum.
Ainulindale
New Member
There are a couple of interesting thougths here but JRR Tolkien already puts down many of these theories, he is a intentional enigma:
And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally). Letter 144 JRR Tolkien
Two theories will break here first, He is not a member of the Valar, nor is he more powerful than Sauron as Glorfindel states clearly here in The Fellowship of the Ring:
"But in any case, said Glorfindel, o send the Ring to him would only postpone the day of evil. He is far away. We could not now take it back to him, unguessed, unmarked by any spy. And even if we could, soon or late the Lord of the Rings would learn of its hiding place and would bend all his power towards it. Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come.
"I know little of Iarwain save the name, said Galdor; `but Glorfindel, I think, is right. Power to defy our Enemy is not in him, unless such power is in the earth itself. And yet we see that Sauron can torture and destroy the very hills" - Council of Elrond, The Fellowship of the Ring, JRR Tolkien
Note Sauron although incredibly powerful is still a Maiar; and a member of Valar would have no need to worrk about him. The difference between the two? Stated here in the Silmarillion:
"With the Valar came other spirits whose being also began before the world, of the same order as the Valar, but of less degree. these are the maiar, the people of Valar, and there servants and helpers."
We also know that Tom clearly states he preceded The time of the Dark Lord:
"When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside." - In the House of Tom Bombadil
So he was here before Morgoth (than Melkor) who is said to be the first of the Valar to arrive on Arda here:
"Now swiftly as they fared, Melko was there before them..."
- The Coming of the Valar and the Building of Valinor ,The Book of Lost Tales
We can deduce that he is speaking about morgoth, when he says Dark Lord, not Sauron, due to the "Dark Lord came from the outside" comment.
Tolkien explains further about Tom in Letter 144
" I would not, however, have left him (Tom) in, if he did not have some kind of function. I might put it this way. The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom with consent against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power, and so on; but both sides in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control, but if you have, as it were taken 'a vow of poverty', renounced control, and take your delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless. It is a natural pacifist view, which always arises in the mind when there is a war" - Letter 144, JRR Tolkien
Tom is just an intentional enigma, and by no means was he more powerful than Sauron.
Also most Tolkien scholars, consider the Hargrove material largely Crackpot theories. He is not a maiar, his reaction to the ring makes that abundantly clear. he is not a member of the Valar as he states he arrived before Morgoth who was the first, and if he was Valar, Glorfindel would be much more confident in his abilities against Sauron IMHO, who was a Maiar.
We also no clearly he was not iluvatar himself who is God, by this:
"There is no embodiment of the Creator anywhere in this story or mythology" . Letter 181, JRR Tolkien
Letter 181
Just some more food for thought, and discussion
I love Tolkien's work
fantasybookspot.com
And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally). Letter 144 JRR Tolkien
Two theories will break here first, He is not a member of the Valar, nor is he more powerful than Sauron as Glorfindel states clearly here in The Fellowship of the Ring:
"But in any case, said Glorfindel, o send the Ring to him would only postpone the day of evil. He is far away. We could not now take it back to him, unguessed, unmarked by any spy. And even if we could, soon or late the Lord of the Rings would learn of its hiding place and would bend all his power towards it. Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come.
"I know little of Iarwain save the name, said Galdor; `but Glorfindel, I think, is right. Power to defy our Enemy is not in him, unless such power is in the earth itself. And yet we see that Sauron can torture and destroy the very hills" - Council of Elrond, The Fellowship of the Ring, JRR Tolkien
Note Sauron although incredibly powerful is still a Maiar; and a member of Valar would have no need to worrk about him. The difference between the two? Stated here in the Silmarillion:
"With the Valar came other spirits whose being also began before the world, of the same order as the Valar, but of less degree. these are the maiar, the people of Valar, and there servants and helpers."
We also know that Tom clearly states he preceded The time of the Dark Lord:
"When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside." - In the House of Tom Bombadil
So he was here before Morgoth (than Melkor) who is said to be the first of the Valar to arrive on Arda here:
"Now swiftly as they fared, Melko was there before them..."
- The Coming of the Valar and the Building of Valinor ,The Book of Lost Tales
We can deduce that he is speaking about morgoth, when he says Dark Lord, not Sauron, due to the "Dark Lord came from the outside" comment.
Tolkien explains further about Tom in Letter 144
" I would not, however, have left him (Tom) in, if he did not have some kind of function. I might put it this way. The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom with consent against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power, and so on; but both sides in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control, but if you have, as it were taken 'a vow of poverty', renounced control, and take your delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless. It is a natural pacifist view, which always arises in the mind when there is a war" - Letter 144, JRR Tolkien
Tom is just an intentional enigma, and by no means was he more powerful than Sauron.
Also most Tolkien scholars, consider the Hargrove material largely Crackpot theories. He is not a maiar, his reaction to the ring makes that abundantly clear. he is not a member of the Valar as he states he arrived before Morgoth who was the first, and if he was Valar, Glorfindel would be much more confident in his abilities against Sauron IMHO, who was a Maiar.
We also no clearly he was not iluvatar himself who is God, by this:
"There is no embodiment of the Creator anywhere in this story or mythology" . Letter 181, JRR Tolkien
Letter 181
Just some more food for thought, and discussion
I love Tolkien's workfantasybookspot.com
MonkeyCatcher
New Member
To break up this debate which I did not understand half of....
I did not miss Tom in the movie at all, in fact I celebrated his absence. It took me three tries to get past his part in the story and read the rest. It was just so dull and full of far too many songs.
I did not miss Tom in the movie at all, in fact I celebrated his absence. It took me three tries to get past his part in the story and read the rest. It was just so dull and full of far too many songs.
Puddleglum
New Member
[QUOTE\]
I think much of the movie-going public would not 'get' Tom Bombadil, and would see him as an annoying, prancing prat, missing the subtle hints at his true power (the ring having no effect on him, for instance).[/QUOTE]
That's because he is an annoying prancing prat. Tom Bombadil was the worst thing about The Lord of the Rings. I've reread the books a couple of times and somehow I always manage to skip that chapter. And I'm sure he wasn't little and green like the thread starter said. Wasn't he really tall and well pink? His equally annoying wife was green though.
I think much of the movie-going public would not 'get' Tom Bombadil, and would see him as an annoying, prancing prat, missing the subtle hints at his true power (the ring having no effect on him, for instance).[/QUOTE]
That's because he is an annoying prancing prat. Tom Bombadil was the worst thing about The Lord of the Rings. I've reread the books a couple of times and somehow I always manage to skip that chapter. And I'm sure he wasn't little and green like the thread starter said. Wasn't he really tall and well pink? His equally annoying wife was green though.