East-West Dialogue: Rex & Sitaram

[Peder]

/wry smile/

 

[Sitaram]

Playing the Game of Goodminton

If I had to venture a guess as to one of the longest running threads, with the most views and the most post, I would say What is everyone up to today in General Chat.

Now, if you read through my posts on "Playing the Game", then ask yourself, "What would it take for this East/West thread to last as long?"

The lifespan of a thread, the number of posts, the number of views, is a measure of the byrdie staying up in the air in the game of Goodminton.

If you every try playing Goodminton, you shall soon discover that it is not as easy as you first thought. In fact, it is many times more difficult than Badminton. Anyone can knock the byrdie down. But how many can keep it in the air for one hour, two hours, twelve hours?

But what shall we gain if we learn a different way to communicate, if we learn to play this strange game of goodminton?

In reality, my four years of seminars at St. John's on the Great Books was precisely this game of goodminton, but it took me forty years to figure that out.

Take a look at this Baudelaire seminar which took place this year, and lasted for two hours, with 40 people sitting around a huge table.

http://thebookforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7489

If you do read this thread, you will note that I personally said nothing for the two hours. I took the notes which you see transcribed. I was seated at a table with 40 people who were my equals or superiors. Had there been a great silence, I was perfectly prepared to carry on the seminar. But there were no silences. Neither was their bedlam and discord.



Perhaps it is time for some kind of recap. I shall try to list the worthwhile things which have come up so far, in no particular order:

1.) In what ways are we transformed by what we learn?

2.) What is Zen?

3.) Is it possible to have a dialogue in a forum of the calibre of Plato's Republic?

 

[TIMECUBE]

i've heard that there are different ways of meditating. can you show me a sample? i really want to learn but i do not understand it. if i started meditating now, wouldn't i become good enough to be like the buddha? by the time i did it like 10 times, i bet i'd be more enlightened than him because he's dead and he can't meditate anymore.

Perhaps long before the 6th. century B.C.E. (Before the Christian Era), which was the century of Siddhartha Gautama, the historical figure known as The Buddha, in India, in the Sanskrit language, the language of the sacred Hindu Vedas, there was a word, dyana used to describe a form of concentration or meditation.

Now, it is from that word dyana that, centuries later, and a continent away, we finally arrive at the word zen. We shall see that the migration of dyana to become zen is a gradual eastward journey, to the Land of the Rising Sun, Japan, by way of China.
That journey started with Bodhidharma who brought dyana to China, where it became known as chan (because they couldnt pronounce dyan and we all know that the Chinese talk funny). Many centuries later, someone brought chan to Japan, where they pronounced it zen (because they couldnt say chan and we all know that Japanese talk funny.)

oooh wow... i used to have to sit like that when i was grounded. i was just thinking how cool it would be to get a statue of me, but it looks like someone has already done that! j/k that is not me. one thing i don't understand is why all these statues are in india. am i on the wrong side of the world? how come zen is only in the east? perhaps people will bring some here so we can all be enlightened.

In ancient India, there are various representations, carvings and engravings of someone seated with crossed legs, erect posture, folded hands, and closed eyes. Now, who or what do you suppose that figure represents?

I thought I would be very clever, just now, and search on Siva "Lord of the Beasts" archeologists. Google returned only one browser page, which was one of mine, written 8/5/99.

I have been searching just now for a picture to show you regarding that ancient seal discovered, showing a figure in meditation.

http://www.jainsamaj.org/literature/harappa-150104.htm


One may study the engraved seal from Mohenjo-Daro (Cambridge Hist. of India, 1953, Pl. XXIII) of the third millennium B.C. Rudra (Pasupati) Mahadeva seated in meditation in the midst of mortals such as men, animals such as rhinoceros, buffalo, tiger, elephant, antelopes, birds and fish and exhibiting the peniserectum (Urdhva-etas) pose standing for the upward force of creative activity. The iconography of the God noticed in the Mohenjo-Daro seal is fully explained by the following Riks from the Rig Veda:-

1. "Brahma among gods, leader of the poets, Rishi of sages, buffalo among animals, hawk among birds, axe among weapons, over the sieve goes Soma singing."

2. "The thrice-bent bull goes on roaring-The Great God has completely entered the mortals."

3. "Rudra is the lord of creatures."

i respect ancient cultures. if we ignore their history and religions then we will be destined to repeat their mistakes. i am not religious though, because i don't go to church anymore ever since my dad left us. what i don't understand is how abraham could meditate after killing all those animals. wouldn't he be more likely to get bit by mosquitos because of all the blood? i want to go back to church and learn, but i'm afraid ever since i saw this movie about waco texas and how they thought that they were going to be enlightened but then they died in a fire.

According to Ninian Smart, Professor of Comparative World Religions, it is a toss-up between Jain and Saivite worship as to which is the more ancient continuously practiced religion.

Now, Mahavira, the 24th Jain Tirthankara was a contemporary of Siddhartha Gautama, the historical Buddha (around 600 B.C.E.). I believe that Zarathustra dates also to around 600 B.C.E in Persia.

By around 3500 B.C.E. in the Harrapan civilization, archeologists find brick platforms which it is assumed were used for Yajna fire sacrifice. And the discovery of the famous "Siva-Pasupati" (Lord of the Beasts) Seal indicates Saivism as well as the practice of Yogic.

At any rate, we see a lotus position meditative figure in artistic depictions of Siva, Mahavaira, and Buddha.

It is very interesting to note that, in the Old Testament, in the Book of Genesis, there is an account of how Patriarch Abraham sacrificed several different animals, split them in half, arranged their halves in a row (with a path through the middle), and then sat all day in a meditative state. When he was in what sounds like a trance, then God appeared as a fire which passed along the path between the animal halfs, through the middle of the sacrifice.

We may see the actual description of Abraham's meditative trance and vision
in Genesis 15:7-21 (King James Version)


7And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

8And he said, LORD God, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?

9And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.

10And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.

11And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.

12And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.

....

17And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.

thank you for all the information, sitaram. i'm sure if i study these ancient cultures hard enough, i'll grasp the meaning of life. i don't have a library card though cuz my mom doesn't want me checking out books and fogetting about them and then getting fines. we are kind of on a tight budget since my dad left.

We scholarly types love discover grand designs, symmetries and formulas which span millenia and continents and draw everything together into one, to organize it and keep it neat, and render it suitable for multiple choice testing.
And if we cannot discover such patterns, then we create them and impose them on the data, when everyone is looking the other way.

We may return somewhat to our thread topic, East vs. West by noting a number of things. First, in the Vedas, the words siva and rudra originally mean simple gentle and harsh. Later, Shiva and Rudra become personified as deities.

You may read about Siva and Rudra here:

http://www.mythfolklore.net/india/encyclopedia/rudra.htm

 

[Sergo]

Dear Sitaram:

Yes, I think that a distructive society is bad society. I may be wrong - but that is my opinion. And, really, you think so too - as you think the society of native Americans were better that our contemporary one on the grounds that they were better suited to live. I do not know much about them (as I am sure most of people today), save for what I read in children books, and later - about human sacrifices and bloody wars with thousands of people killed. (Thanks Peder - I heard somewhere about that too). And I do not think the contemporary Western society should be called "destructive". It does many wrong things, but do you remember a society which hasn't?

Then: I do not care much for "strong groups". That's individuals that I think of. And never mind how strong is a society, if some individuals have to suffer to ensure the might of a society. But alas, all the societies on Earth were and are like that.

As to myself - I would have prefered that people could live as they prefer: some - as native Americans, some - as traditional Jews, some - as Muslim fundamentalists, as far as nobody does harm to anybody else. But alas - so far as "strong groups" - i.e. states - have things as their leaders wish - that is not possible.

Yes, I had not read much. You have mentioned Aristotle - I have not read him. But you mentioned zen too... As far as I remember, Lao Tse told his desciples that empty is better than full, that to learn is not as good as to know, and that to know everything he needn't to go anywhere - just to sit in one place and think... It would be natural to think that, according to zen, one doesn't need to read to understand life...

Dear Sitaram: after I've read the story of your life (at least that part you told us), I am sure you have a great experience. You started without God, spent many years as a believer, and came to like Eastern philosophy. Does that mean that Eastern ways are better for everybody? But do you know how many Christians are in China? Chinese Christians? Not much. But some. And I imagine that there are some people who went all the way you had, but only backwards. Would that mean Christian ideas are the best? Or even Atheist ideas?

As to Goodminton: it has been at 18 or so that I found out that the object of badminton was to ground that thing on the opponent's territory. Before that I was sure that the longer it's in the air - the better... We are funny people.

 

[Sitaram]

Sergo: you are the one who is preoccupied in speaking of better or worse, victory and defeat.

I don't believe I have spoken in such terms. I am still busy trying to lay the groundwork of what is, and map the terrain.

A hundred years from now, I shall be dead. Most likely all of us shall be gone in a hundred years. And who shall enumerate all your victories and defeats in badminton, or tennis, or the other games you play?

Something from Plato lives on, and Shakespeare, and all those other great authors. It lives on in the minds of those who think upon such matters.

 

[Sergo]

Sergo: you are the one who is preoccupied in speaking of better or worse, victory and defeat.

I don't believe I have spoken in such terms. I am still busy trying to lay the groundwork of what is, and map the terrain.

A hundred years from now, I shall be dead. Most likely all of us shall be gone in a hundred years. And who shall enumerate all your victories and defeats in badminton, or tennis, or the other games you play?

Something from Plato lives on, and Shakespeare, and all those other great authors. It lives on in the minds of those who think upon such matters.

So, you think I am preoccupied with victory and defeat?
OK, so I am defeated. So I cannot have explained myself. OK. I will go and sleep right now.

 

[StillILearn]

But what shall we gain if we learn a different way to communicate, if we learn to play this strange game of goodminton?

I'm wondering if I don't need to go back to the avatar that Ell first found for me when I joined this forum. I fear that the eye I found for myself appears (wrongfully) to be gazing outward with a somewhat sarcastic mien. This doesn't at all reflect my intent in participating in this thread or in this forum! I truly am here to learn, and one of my greatest joy lies in discussing metaphysics, so I sincerely apologize if I came off as a wise-ass in my last post. (Sometimes my attempts at humor don't come across very well when it comes to the printed word, so I'm going to zip my lips for the time being and listen.)

I'm much intrigued by the concept of goodminton as well as by these three questions raised thus far:

1.) In what ways are we transformed by what we learn?

2.) What is Zen?

3.) Is it possible to have a dialogue in a forum of the calibre of Plato's Republic?

so I'll stop trying to be funny.

 

[Gem]

I'm not the brightest tool in the box so by the time i finished reading the thread i'd forgotton what most of the posts were about. Having reread everything I think I see what everyone means.

sergo

am sure you have a great experience. You started without God, spent many years as a believer, and came to like Eastern philosophy. Does that mean that Eastern ways are better for everybody? But do you know how many Christians are in China? Chinese Christians? Not much. But some. And I imagine that there are some people who went all the way you had, but only backwards. Would that mean Christian ideas are the best? Or even Atheist ideas?

Sergo I totally agree with your point that neither eastern nor western philosophy is more 'right' or better than the other. I don't think though that this was Sitaram's meaning, he was merely questioning how/whether delving into anothers philosophy influenced/changed us. Then again that was just my take on his posts, only he can explain his thoughts.

Literature, the arts, the different philosophies are and were all created by men. They came to the conclusions they came to through the experiences that life gave them and the observations they made of the people and nature around them. That is why I cannot say that one is more right over the other and that one way of living and thinking is better than another - we humans are mostly subjective and flawed with a tendancy of twisting things to make them suit us. All my life i have been stuck in the middle of the whole east/west thing and when i finally came to the realisation that all the ideologies and philosophies were created by men, I stopped comparing and taking things as gospel and instead decided to use them as guides to understand myself and others better.

I'm told that my father used to say; there are those who listen only to what their experiences tell them, then there are those that listen only to what 'learning' tells them, and then there are those very few who examine the importance of their learning by using their experiences.

So if anyone actually understands what i've been rabbiting on about then please explain it to me to

 

[Ell]

So here's my lob at goodminton:

I'm told that my father used to say; there are those who listen only to what their experiences tell them, then there are those that listen only to what 'learning' tells them, and then there are those very few who examine the importance of their learning by using their experiences.

So if anyone actually understands what i've been rabbiting on about then please explain it to me to

Gem, I think you've explained yourself very well. I believe part of this dialogue is to do just as your father implies; juxtapose our own experience with the observations and conclusions of others who have gone before, to "stand on the shoulders of giants" if you will.

I don't think Sitaram means to say any one particular way of the thinking is the correct one. My take is that the same or similar discussions have gone on for as long as mankind has been able to communicate ideas with each other. Thus, it's worthwhile to look at what others have thought and written about if for no other reason than to compare notes. The exercise, alone can make you look at yourself and life differently. No right or wrong implied.

The east/west question is relatively new (as indicated by Sitaram's citations), I think, because in earlier times east and west were content to live in their own distinct solitudes. The only time they came together was to clash in warfare or for mutual benefit in trade. It's a fairly new phenomenon that the different cultures, as in the case of Gem and myself, have had to adjust to each other in such intimate ways.

ell

ps. Still, I got your sense of humour!

 

[Sitaram]

A Postmodern Platonic Dialog

(Thor is a friend of mine on the Internet. He has read this thread and discussed it with me at some lenght. He is a great guy, so I want you to welcome him with a big round of applause. AND NOW ... drum roll.... HEEERRREEES Thor)

Thor: I have read through the entire thread? What is the deal with destructive cultures?

Sitaram: there is a book, co authored by D.T. Suzuki (the Japanese Zen master who collaborated with Alan Watts), and psycholgist/psychoanalyist Erich Fromm, and a third person.... and in chapter 1, the opening pages.... Suzuki compares a poem by Tennyson, where he plucks a flower (killing it... i.e. destructive analysis) holds it up, and wonders what God and man is. Basho sees a flower, leaves it alone, and writes a Haiku. So...
Suzuki says this is paradigmatic of the difference between the Eastern and the Western mindset....

Thor: what are your thoughts on that?

Sitaram: but, it all started because Rex Yuan is in Beijing, China, working towards his Masters in English.... and he needs certain books, but he is deep into Milton and the history of Cromwell...

Sitaram: so... I asked Rex.... does it CHANGE you at all, being Chinese, and being in a Communist society, to immerse yourself in all this western philosophy, literature, art, history
so,.... the question is, are we changed by what we study, culturally, philosophically....

Thor: and he responded that his way of thinking is typically Chinese...

Sitaram: well, he said that he doubts he would ever change....

Thor: What do you mean by "changed"?

Sitaram: I described how I changed radically over the last 40 years.... as I immersed myself in each new thing... In high school, I had no clear idea about the great books, western heritage, philosophy.... In college I thought that was everything in the world, and that eastern writings were nonsense.... then, in my 40's I began to immerse myself in eastern things....
each stage brought a change in my values, feelings, goals, outlook, etc...
I sincerely believe that all these Chinese and Russian and Saudi youths, who are on the internet all the time..... are becoming, somehow, westernized, homogenized

Thor: Isn't there change every moment, though?

Sitaram: Well,... I am not a flashing neon sign... but every 5 or 10 years, I notice I have changed....

Thor: but is it even possible to stay the same any period of time? I mean, I thought nothing is static.

Sitaram: well, that is a good point.... Sartre said we are condemned to be free..... I say we are doomed to change... but, what we engage in can affect the direction of that change

Look at that Dan Rather, the newscaster, who just died.... the documentary on his life showed that he was reading CONSTANTLY, even in the pool and the bath tub,.... and he never even finished high school.... but, he was a voracious reader/learner and, somehow, that channeled his natural inclination to change...

Thor: Suppose he didn't change at all? How do you think that would have affected him?

Sitaram: A guy like Dan rather was a driven perfectionist.... he had to always be sensing change, or he would have seen it as failure, and it would have really bothered him.....

Thor: Is ambition necessarily a good thing, though? I mean, if he was content then it wouldn't have mattered if he wasn't perfect.

Sitaram: not everyone is driven, not everyone is a perfectionist..... everyone changes,.... but they have the option to choose some of their activities, to choose how to spend their time,.... and that influences the direction of change....growth....

Thor: but what I can people choose? it seems like they're going to do whatever they're going to do, or whatever their psychological makeup dictates. I can't choose to love someone I don't love. I can't kill myself if I want to live.

Sitaram: each individual's character and physiology predispose them to certain things,.... but, no pain no gain,.... everything requires work, effort, practice, in order to master/excel

Thor: I can't like reading if I don't like to read. How is change determined by choice?

Sitaram: if you found yourself suddenly, forced by circumstances, into an arranged marriage,.... you might grow (change) to love that spouse very much.... just as you might think you are madly in love, and marry someone, but grow (change) to dislike them..... Was it Pericles or Demosthenes, who had a speech defect, ... so he filled his mouth with pebbles, and gave orations over the roaring of the oceans waves, and became a great Orator... he had impediments, but he forced himself. I didn’t always like study, writing, composition,.... but I forced myself... and it changed me. Now, I could not live without it.

Thor: I don't think wanting to be something equates to choice. Your will dictates your decision.
Maybe you perceive something, even just an idea, to be valuable/pleasurable. I think that's what drives us... the desire for pleasure. sometimes it's just a pleasurable thought, and we go through hell to get it, but it pays off in the end.

Sitaram: Think of how many little kids want to be firemen.... now most of them change, and wind up becoming something totally different... but some persist in their desire, and become actual firemen.... yet others are accidentally or coincidentally drawn into the role of fireman, by a series of circumstances..... they do not seek it,... they do not dislike it.... they go with the flow of circumstances and opportunities. Other people are born into a family of firemen.... and it is expected of them..... they are not too keen on it.... but they become firemen from a sense of duty

Thor: The object of pleasure changes. Constantly. Experiences dictate what it will be, not choice. That seems to point to something, don't you think?

Sitaram: I spoke at length with someone in India once.... I wish I had saved what they said.... they explained like this... they said.... "I have been raised in this place by my family, as a certain religion... and that is part of who and what I am, and what my family and ancestors are, and what this place my homeland is..... therefore..... it is meaningless for someone to try to convert me to something else as if mere reason were all that is at stake...

Thor: I don't think people should try to convert anyone to something don't want. it's like giving water to someone who isn't thirsty.

Sitaram: Agreed

Thor: Are you content where you're at?

Sitaram: I am grateful for the experiences I have had... I could not be what I am or think what I think now, were it not for the sum total of those experiences... my future is insecure,... but then even a wealthy powerful person has an uncertain future.... I wish I could have known certain things early on in life, and perhaps, used my time more wisely,... wasting less of it...Then again, now, at my age, I have few choices left.... the die has been cast so to speak....

Thor: You worry too much man

Sitaram: Well, I do not have so many more years to live, perhaps.... I think a lot about how I can possibly do something with the writings and ideas that I do have... in such a way that they might live on after me.... I suppose its like playing a slot machine.... each day,... each new day, perhaps the next paragraph, the next idea, will be the one to catch on fire...

Thor: Have you read Ram Das?

Sitaram: I read "The only dance there is" and I watched him in his documentary.

Thor: What do you think of him?

Sitaram: He was initiated at a Hanuman temple....He had this quote in his book "Hanuman comes to Ram. Ram says, "What are you? Are you a monkey? Are you a man?" Hanuman answers, "When I do not know who I am, I serve YOU. And when I KNOW who I am, then you and I are ONE". Ram Das is pretty good...

Thor: Does he mean serve in the sense of selflessness or slavery?

Sitaram: His office at Harvard was right next to Timothy Leary's office.... they both got thrown out.

He who is master of himself is slave to himself.

The desire for liberation is an impediment to liberation.

 

[StillILearn]

Welcome,Thor!

For many years, Ram Dass has been one of my most esteemed teachers. Several years ago, Ram Dass introduced me to Emmanuel, one of my all-time greatest teachers. Emmanuel is what you might call a man without a country.

(So much for keeping my lips zipped...)

 

[Sergo]

Sergo I totally agree with your point that neither eastern nor western philosophy is more 'right' or better than the other. I don't think though that this was Sitaram's meaning, he was merely questioning how/whether delving into anothers philosophy influenced/changed us. Then again that was just my take on his posts, only he can explain his thoughts.

Literature, the arts, the different philosophies are and were all created by men. They came to the conclusions they came to through the experiences that life gave them and the observations they made of the people and nature around them. That is why I cannot say that one is more right over the other and that one way of living and thinking is better than another - we humans are mostly subjective and flawed with a tendancy of twisting things to make them suit us. All my life i have been stuck in the middle of the whole east/west thing and when i finally came to the realisation that all the ideologies and philosophies were created by men, I stopped comparing and taking things as gospel and instead decided to use them as guides to understand myself and others better.

I'm told that my father used to say; there are those who listen only to what their experiences tell them, then there are those that listen only to what 'learning' tells them, and then there are those very few who examine the importance of their learning by using their experiences.

So if anyone actually understands what i've been rabbiting on about then please explain it to me to

Thanks for your thoughts.

What I've written was in response to the following:

For example D.T. Suzuki contrasts a poem by Tennyson with an haiku by Basho in a most astounding manner. Suzuki demonstrates that Tennyson's poem "I plucked a flower from the crannied wall" is paradigmatic of destructive western analytical thinking. The Western thinker knows what it WAS (after destroying it in the analytical process). The flower wilts in Tennyson’s hand is wilting as he philosophizes about it. Whereas Basho simply observes the blue flower, the Nazuna, by a wall, and leaves it undisturbed. Basho does not dissect and destroy, but rather merges subjectively with his surroundings. And here is another observation regarding European paintings, where the person, the face, takes up most of the canvas, and nature is in the distance, very small. By contrast, Japanese paintings have people as very small, in the background, and the bulk of the canvas is the mountains, nature.


Rex_Yuan:
The real spirit of Chinese traditional culture (not the modern one which is changed greatly by the influence from abroad)is by doing good to everyone else that the giver receives real happiness. I found that the Chinese development of thinking is a history of interpreting what has been said by the ancestor. While in the west, it is one that the offspring overturn their ancestors. This is the fundamental reason why I said to you that I don't think I will change. i.e., Harmony or Conflict, that is the title of my thesis Chinese culture sees everything as a whole, (harmony); The West one sees human kind split from nature, from others (conflict). Descartes said "I think, so I exist." He actually put himself detached (or alienated) from the world around him. Being detached creates conflicting state of existing.

And my opinion is that it is not right to represent a culture only with one example: it gives absolutely wrong impression. OK, let's take Hitler and say that the Western culture could produce only means of the world's destruction.

Similarly I think that wrong to say that "European paintings" represent a person in disbalance with nature, while "Japanese paintings" show people as a background to nature, so to say. I think there are some words lacking here, like "some", or even "most", for as it is - it is understood that ALL European paintings and ALL Japanese paintings have qualities described above. And that is surely not the case. There are all too many examples to mention them here, I am sure - why, everybody knows them.

Yes, Japanese culture, for example, seems to be quite close to nature. But as far as I know that hadn't at all hold Japanese hunters and fishermen from overkilling natural resources in Eastern seas for many years, exactly as our Russian hunters and fishermen had done...

That was what I wanted to convey. I surely didn't want to accuse anybody of anything - just to post my humble opinion.
Have I been wrong in doing that?