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George Orwell: Animal Farm
- Thread starter msthiel
- Start date
It’s important to know that the book was written in 1945 because that was the end of WWII. The author may have had strong feelings about the war and government policies in general. This could have contributed to the reason why he wrote this book. He was a socialist that followed Marx and Lenin. He wrote with a pseudonym, probably to protect his identity since everyone didn’t accept his ideas.
I disagree. If everyone would be equal society still wouldn’t be perfect. There is no way to reach perfection. There are a lot of situations that we can’t control such as intelligence. If they were equal, people would still find things to fight over. People are never satisfied. Also there is no way to ensure that everyone would stay equal. People become greedy and try to out-do each other.
Men and women receive equal pay. All children must learn at the same rate…so no child can be considered smarter than the next. There would only be one type of car that people can buy. All pay is proportionate to the job, the harder you work, the higher your wage. Everyone works a fixed amount of hours per day. Every area has equal taxes. It is impossible to name all the laws that one would need in this type of lifestyle. Every situation would need to be controlled by a law so that no one could out-do the next person.
The people who are less capable would be forced to catch up so the society remained equal. They would have to go to school longer each day to make sure their intelligence was similar to those their age. Physically people would have to do the same labor so their strengths would be similar. If people are lacking social skills they would learn how to interact during all their schooling and work. If these skills couldn’t be obtained then they would have a job where they don’t come into contact with many people.
People would get sick of having a certain role in society. They would probably rebel or do poor work. People would come to resent the government and all of its laws. These citizens would have to do hard labor or go to jail. If they were causing a large uprising then they could be deported or killed.
I believe it is impossible to keep equality in a society. People always try to better themselves so they can feel more powerful than the next person.
I thought the movie was a little weird because the animals and humans interactd. But it did make a lot of sense and proved the point that Golding had made in the book that we just finished. The animals revolted against the farmers because they were treated poorly, yet they made the same mistakes and Napoleon acted as a dictator. If the animals knew how their new society would have ended up I'm sure they wouldn't have revolted in the first place.
I disagree. If everyone would be equal society still wouldn’t be perfect. There is no way to reach perfection. There are a lot of situations that we can’t control such as intelligence. If they were equal, people would still find things to fight over. People are never satisfied. Also there is no way to ensure that everyone would stay equal. People become greedy and try to out-do each other.
Men and women receive equal pay. All children must learn at the same rate…so no child can be considered smarter than the next. There would only be one type of car that people can buy. All pay is proportionate to the job, the harder you work, the higher your wage. Everyone works a fixed amount of hours per day. Every area has equal taxes. It is impossible to name all the laws that one would need in this type of lifestyle. Every situation would need to be controlled by a law so that no one could out-do the next person.
The people who are less capable would be forced to catch up so the society remained equal. They would have to go to school longer each day to make sure their intelligence was similar to those their age. Physically people would have to do the same labor so their strengths would be similar. If people are lacking social skills they would learn how to interact during all their schooling and work. If these skills couldn’t be obtained then they would have a job where they don’t come into contact with many people.
People would get sick of having a certain role in society. They would probably rebel or do poor work. People would come to resent the government and all of its laws. These citizens would have to do hard labor or go to jail. If they were causing a large uprising then they could be deported or killed.
I believe it is impossible to keep equality in a society. People always try to better themselves so they can feel more powerful than the next person.
I thought the movie was a little weird because the animals and humans interactd. But it did make a lot of sense and proved the point that Golding had made in the book that we just finished. The animals revolted against the farmers because they were treated poorly, yet they made the same mistakes and Napoleon acted as a dictator. If the animals knew how their new society would have ended up I'm sure they wouldn't have revolted in the first place.
phil_t
New Member
So are you guys using the forum for your study group to get in contact with each other or something?
I suppose Darren would be cool with that, but im not him and cant speak for him, so you maybe should have asked first!
Still, this is a book discussion forum ..... and you are discussing books ..... just hope you dont mind when everyone else joins in and hijacks the thread
Phil
I suppose Darren would be cool with that, but im not him and cant speak for him, so you maybe should have asked first!
Still, this is a book discussion forum ..... and you are discussing books ..... just hope you dont mind when everyone else joins in and hijacks the thread
Phil
M
member 737
Guest
I'm a bit confused by poste's reply. It seems like he answers the questions which weren't asked here - and there's every likelihood he really does.
Nevertheless, I'll try to comment on some points which I understood.
Firstly, Orwell can't be writing about WWII, because there are no Nazis. If he relates to any particular war (which I doubt) it is rather a Spanish Civil War, in which he took part. There, he saw an example of a revolution.
Secondly, The Animal Farm shows a way in which Stalin gained power in Russia. Animals portays real russian politics. Although it's true that Orwell was a socialist, he was disappointed with Stalin's version of communism. That's why this book strongly condems this political system.
Nevertheless, I'll try to comment on some points which I understood.
Firstly, Orwell can't be writing about WWII, because there are no Nazis. If he relates to any particular war (which I doubt) it is rather a Spanish Civil War, in which he took part. There, he saw an example of a revolution.
Secondly, The Animal Farm shows a way in which Stalin gained power in Russia. Animals portays real russian politics. Although it's true that Orwell was a socialist, he was disappointed with Stalin's version of communism. That's why this book strongly condems this political system.
I strongly disagree that life in the US would be perfect if everyone were totally equal. For one, there would be no possible way to make everyone comply with your new rules and no matter what kind of laws you would put into effect, it is human nature to want to be better than everyone else. People will contstantly be trying to take over the control and no amount of laws, no matter how well they are enforced will be able to overrule human nature. And I agree with Emily, there are just certain things that are impossible to make equal between everyone. Then you would have to have people to make the laws and they would not be equal with the rest of society because they would have more power.
I dont even know where to start with this question. First of all, no one would be allowed to marry because then no one would be able to fight over people. There would not be able to be any sports either in school or outside, so there would not be able to be a group of people beating another team to be higher. The whole career thing would not be able to even be equal between people because in any place of work you would need a position higher above everyone to tell people what to do so jobs would not be equal therefore not making pay equal.
People with learning disabilities would have to catch up to the other people in society because it is pretty much impossible to have other people come down to their level. They would have to have special tutors and have different ways to learn so they can catch up to other people and be able to do the same work as them. But even as they are learning, before they get to the hight of intelligence that they need to be at, they are still going to be lower then everyone and there are going to be more and more mentally challenged kids born every year making equality once again impossible.
People would constanty be gaining more knowledge and technology would be becoming more advanced every year and everyone would have to keep up with them and it would be impossible to teach everyone the same things and not any more making those people more knowledgeable and higher. People would rebel against the governement becuase the laws would have to be so tight and as more and more people would stand up to the law, punishment would become more and more difficult.
I believe total equality is impossible to achieve because it is human nature to try to be better than others, no matter how many laws you put on a society, human nature is still going to come through and be dominant.
I dont even know where to start with this question. First of all, no one would be allowed to marry because then no one would be able to fight over people. There would not be able to be any sports either in school or outside, so there would not be able to be a group of people beating another team to be higher. The whole career thing would not be able to even be equal between people because in any place of work you would need a position higher above everyone to tell people what to do so jobs would not be equal therefore not making pay equal.
People with learning disabilities would have to catch up to the other people in society because it is pretty much impossible to have other people come down to their level. They would have to have special tutors and have different ways to learn so they can catch up to other people and be able to do the same work as them. But even as they are learning, before they get to the hight of intelligence that they need to be at, they are still going to be lower then everyone and there are going to be more and more mentally challenged kids born every year making equality once again impossible.
People would constanty be gaining more knowledge and technology would be becoming more advanced every year and everyone would have to keep up with them and it would be impossible to teach everyone the same things and not any more making those people more knowledgeable and higher. People would rebel against the governement becuase the laws would have to be so tight and as more and more people would stand up to the law, punishment would become more and more difficult.
I believe total equality is impossible to achieve because it is human nature to try to be better than others, no matter how many laws you put on a society, human nature is still going to come through and be dominant.
M
member 737
Guest
I have a strange feeling you people don't understand what the word "equal" means...
Firstly, in my opinion, characters of "Animal Farm" don't represent specific historical figure, but rather the scheme of every revolution which end up eating its own children. Of course, similarities with Russian Revolution can be noticed, but also with French.
Furthermore, I agree that absolute equality is both impossible to be created and undesirable. But this value is still needed in our life, like many other values, even if they are contradictory.
Furthermore, I agree that absolute equality is both impossible to be created and undesirable. But this value is still needed in our life, like many other values, even if they are contradictory.
M
member 737
Guest
Certainly, the Animal Farm warns us against the tragic results of revolution in general - it's not a way of introducing equality in the society. But, as far as i'm concerned, Orvell shows it on the specific example of the Russian revolution. As I stated before, the book describes how communists ruled in Russia.
So, if you know something about eastern Europe history, stop reading right now!
Major is Lenin, Napoleon is Stalin, Snowball - Trocki, and a group of young dogs represents NKVD, as far as I can remember. I don't think these animals could be associated with any particular politics from French revolution, though I agree that the mechanism criticised by Orvell matches French revolution as well.
On the question of equality, we surely don't want to have such a equality, as the communistic system proposes: everything for the party, nothing for the citizens.
Well, it can be said that Napoleon is Robespierre, Snowball- Danton and dogs- the sankiulots or the jacobins. I think that we could also look for Major. What is more, in the book Major died to soon to be Lenin, rather Marx. And what about counterparts for the donkey, the horse (my favourite) and other animals. I think they represent some symbols, not real people.
Of course, that the reality of communism was as stated above, but nobody admitted it then. All what was done by communists can be infered directly from theory of Marx and Engels. The Party had such rights because their representatives were conscious of the true role of workers in the revolution and future system of wealth and happiness.
Of course, that the reality of communism was as stated above, but nobody admitted it then. All what was done by communists can be infered directly from theory of Marx and Engels. The Party had such rights because their representatives were conscious of the true role of workers in the revolution and future system of wealth and happiness.
M
member 737
Guest
I can't agree with you that the leaders of the French revolution match the animals. If we look precisely at the details, Danton was killed, while Trocki run away to South America - compare it with Snowball's fate. As for sankiulots and jacobins, they were political organisations, not formed with a one and only reason to serve as a device of terror (though jacobins got close to that goal later on).
What's more, Orvell's biography gives clues supporting my point of view - that he was a socialist himself, but he condemned Stalin's understanding of a communist country. As Orvell was much engrossed in the events in Russia, he could based his book on these facts. Why should he be so interested in French revolution, which, in addition, had nothing to do with communist regime?
But, though historical connections of The Animal Farm, which we analyse here very closely, may influence the interpretation of the novel, they are not so essential for the general message of the book. If Orvell had wanted to show the exact crimes of one regime, he would have written a non-fiction book, I suppose. To my mind, he was more focused on revealing the universal mechanism destroying freedom and safety of citizens of any country which adopts communist ideas or makes a revolution.
What's more, Orvell's biography gives clues supporting my point of view - that he was a socialist himself, but he condemned Stalin's understanding of a communist country. As Orvell was much engrossed in the events in Russia, he could based his book on these facts. Why should he be so interested in French revolution, which, in addition, had nothing to do with communist regime?
But, though historical connections of The Animal Farm, which we analyse here very closely, may influence the interpretation of the novel, they are not so essential for the general message of the book. If Orvell had wanted to show the exact crimes of one regime, he would have written a non-fiction book, I suppose. To my mind, he was more focused on revealing the universal mechanism destroying freedom and safety of citizens of any country which adopts communist ideas or makes a revolution.
If we look precisely at the details, Lenin wasn't great person with high ideals, innocent of crimes. If we look precisely at the details, tsar of Russia was killed, not exiled like the owner of farm. If we look precisely at the details, the Boltshewik Revolution didn't overthrow the tsar, but the only one Parliament elected in Russia in the democratic way. And what is more, Trocki run away, but then he was killed by the communist's agent, Frida Kahlo's lover.
If we agreed on your interpretation, Idun, we would have to say that Stalin is the one responsible for the all evil of the communism- and it isn't the truth. And finally, Orvell was disappointed with the whole communism, not only stalinism, which was shown in his another book "1984". We can also deduce it from his reaction for the Spanish Civil War, especially the participation of other socialists, like Hemingway.
P.S. Don't you think that we monopolise a bit this discussion? Please, anyone, make a comment!
If we agreed on your interpretation, Idun, we would have to say that Stalin is the one responsible for the all evil of the communism- and it isn't the truth. And finally, Orvell was disappointed with the whole communism, not only stalinism, which was shown in his another book "1984". We can also deduce it from his reaction for the Spanish Civil War, especially the participation of other socialists, like Hemingway.
P.S. Don't you think that we monopolise a bit this discussion? Please, anyone, make a comment!
I totally disagree that life would be perfect in the US if everyone were equal. No matter how much we wish our world was better and everyone was on the same playing field, I think it is almost impossible for everyone to be equal. We have to realize that we as humans are competitive and strive to be the best at all we do. Even though people are constantly wishing for a perfect society-for no war, equal pay, and less discrimination- people still wouldn't be happy. Everyone has certain abilities or things that they are better at, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. Everyone has their own talents, and that is just the way the world works. If everyone was the same, think of how boring that would be. There would be no desire to acheive something greater or to challenge yourself.
If I was designing a society in which everyone was equal, I don't know what kind of laws I would make. I agree with amandap that having sports teams would be banned so that competition couldn't take place. Everyone would receive equal pay and would pay equal taxes, no matter what job they did. There would be no racial prejudice either. In no way could one person make up a set of laws in which everyone maintained an equal status in society. It is absolutely impossible.
People who are less capable mentally, physically, and socially would have to be helped. They will probably need to attend special classes and have special aid in the areas where they are struggling. It would be hard for them to catch up, not impossible, but hard. I think no matter how hard they worked towards being the same as everyone else, they would always have problems and disadvantages.
There are tons of problems that come with enforcing a perfect society. One of the biggest problems i forsee would be the job field. If everyone were equal, they would all have to have equal pay. That is basically saying that the president of the united states and the regular blue collar worker would be recieving the same pay for two totally different jobs. Also, work can not be done without a boss or someone of a higher position to tell you what needs to be done. I think people would become sick of this perfect society and rebel against it. No matter how hard or strictly the laws are enforced, not everyone will follow them. People will get sick of having the same role in society as everyone else day after day. There would be nothing intriguing about a person, because everyone would be equal.
Total equality is out of our grasp. It is impossible to achieve because it is human nature to strive for excellence. I don't think anyone would be content in a perfect society like that. Even though it sounds good to say everyone is equal and the world is happy, there are so many problems and flukes that out-weigh the advantages.
If I was designing a society in which everyone was equal, I don't know what kind of laws I would make. I agree with amandap that having sports teams would be banned so that competition couldn't take place. Everyone would receive equal pay and would pay equal taxes, no matter what job they did. There would be no racial prejudice either. In no way could one person make up a set of laws in which everyone maintained an equal status in society. It is absolutely impossible.
People who are less capable mentally, physically, and socially would have to be helped. They will probably need to attend special classes and have special aid in the areas where they are struggling. It would be hard for them to catch up, not impossible, but hard. I think no matter how hard they worked towards being the same as everyone else, they would always have problems and disadvantages.
There are tons of problems that come with enforcing a perfect society. One of the biggest problems i forsee would be the job field. If everyone were equal, they would all have to have equal pay. That is basically saying that the president of the united states and the regular blue collar worker would be recieving the same pay for two totally different jobs. Also, work can not be done without a boss or someone of a higher position to tell you what needs to be done. I think people would become sick of this perfect society and rebel against it. No matter how hard or strictly the laws are enforced, not everyone will follow them. People will get sick of having the same role in society as everyone else day after day. There would be nothing intriguing about a person, because everyone would be equal.
Total equality is out of our grasp. It is impossible to achieve because it is human nature to strive for excellence. I don't think anyone would be content in a perfect society like that. Even though it sounds good to say everyone is equal and the world is happy, there are so many problems and flukes that out-weigh the advantages.
Ell
Well-Known Member
Hi msthiel,
Since this is an open forum, how about posting the list of questions that your group is responding to?
As you can see, there are a number of members here who are more than willing to discuss Animal Farm. But we're at somewhat of a disadvantage when we don't know what the questions are.
No problem using the forum for a book discussion, but it would be nice to include the rest of us.
So how about someone posting those questions???
Since this is an open forum, how about posting the list of questions that your group is responding to?
As you can see, there are a number of members here who are more than willing to discuss Animal Farm. But we're at somewhat of a disadvantage when we don't know what the questions are.
No problem using the forum for a book discussion, but it would be nice to include the rest of us.
So how about someone posting those questions???
For those of you who are non-world lit students here are the first set of questions I had asked my high school students to think about and post responses too...I have one request...if at all possible could people who contribute try not the give the ending of the book away as my students are reading it in sections...I realize that this is an open forum, but with 10 students taking the class independently and being involved in extra-curriculars this was the only way we could make having a discussion about the books we are reading work...
Life in the USA would be perfect if everyone were totally equal. Agree or Disagree?
You are designing a society in which everyone is equal. What are the laws?
What would you do to help people who were less capable mentally, physically, or socially to “catch up”?
What problems can you foresee that might arise in a society with enforced “equality for all”? How would you handle those problems?
Do you believe that total equality is possible, or would human nature assure that some people would eventually dominate others?
Life in the USA would be perfect if everyone were totally equal. Agree or Disagree?
You are designing a society in which everyone is equal. What are the laws?
What would you do to help people who were less capable mentally, physically, or socially to “catch up”?
What problems can you foresee that might arise in a society with enforced “equality for all”? How would you handle those problems?
Do you believe that total equality is possible, or would human nature assure that some people would eventually dominate others?