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non english language litterature - even translated
- Thread starter nephele
- Start date
Living in Belgium and having read books in French,I can see a few reasons why. There seem to be very few bookshops. In most cases it is newsagents who sell novels and they are usually translations of big authors (Stephen King, John Grisham...). In French the trend seems to be that a novel has to be high literature. Things are slowly changing but novels by French speakers are usually printed with a boring cover (i.e. a uniform colour and just the authors name and the title), whereas in Anglo-American novel the covers are usually a photograph or a picture of some sort. Which is a pity because there are some very good authors around. There is one author who springs to mind, Christian Jacq, who wrote in French but sells as well in English.
I was not refering exclusively to French authors - far from it. But there is a whole world of litterature, German, Italian, Japanese, Chinese, Russian, Skandinavian... shall I go on and on? And not only our contemporaries - without excluding them
So, why this alternative form of 'isolationism'? Is it lack of interest or lack of information?
So, why this alternative form of 'isolationism'? Is it lack of interest or lack of information?
I really don't know. I've thought about this as well, and the only explanation I've been able to find is that
a) the English-speaking community is very big (Canada, USA, Australia, UK), so it's more than normal that there are a lot more "English" authors out there than there are, let's say, Dutch authors
b) people who's mother tongue isn't English will more easily read books in English than a native English speaker would read a (for example) French book
c) we Europeans suck at making ourselves known. At least, us Belgians do. We lack the marketing skills, so although we have some good writers, no one'll know. (or something along those lines)
I know it's not the best of explanations, but it's the best I can do.
Maybe we should start A Better World here by showing people there's a world beyond English authors (though I do believe most of the people on these boards are well aware of that, just read through a couple of the threads)
a) the English-speaking community is very big (Canada, USA, Australia, UK), so it's more than normal that there are a lot more "English" authors out there than there are, let's say, Dutch authors
b) people who's mother tongue isn't English will more easily read books in English than a native English speaker would read a (for example) French book
c) we Europeans suck at making ourselves known. At least, us Belgians do. We lack the marketing skills, so although we have some good writers, no one'll know. (or something along those lines)
I know it's not the best of explanations, but it's the best I can do.
Maybe we should start A Better World here by showing people there's a world beyond English authors (though I do believe most of the people on these boards are well aware of that, just read through a couple of the threads)
Ell
Well-Known Member
Hmmm. I don't think there is a lack of interest, per se, in non-Anglo-American authors - and by Anglo-American, I assume, you mean "English-speaking" authors. Umberto Eco is a very popular non-English author that comes to mind.
However, I do think that contemporary books written in English become more popular for a number of reasons - most of which lies hit upon (though I don't think Belgians suck, lies
). Put it this way, publishers want to sell their books, there are more English readers, thus books are marketed towards primarily English readers. I don't think this is necessarily right, but I think it happens.On the other hand most of the non-English classics (Madame Bovary, Crime and Punishment to name a couple) are still being published and read by a great number and cross-section of people. Maybe publishers sell the public short by not promoting non-English authors - another case of 'dumbing-down' to the masses.
Maybe we should try to remedy this and start a thread to recommend and promote some contemporary non-Anglo authors?
Dawn
kickbox
I think this is probably the number one reason. It's all about money, isn't it? The more money poured into the marketing of a book the more return on the dollar. If the cover's interesting (yes, I do browse covers when shopping) then the more people will buy. The publishing industry, to a large extent, determines what we read. Therefore, if a larger number of reader speaks English and it's the English readers that are buying books (the books with the flashy covers), they determine the reading material, don't they.
They do deviate occasionally, though. While they're translations, we do get Eco, Perez-Reverte, Isabelle Allente (spelling?).
Note: I'm remembering they also have great covers!!! I'm ranting, I know. But did I answer the question?
Note 2: I only read English so, I feel I miss out tremendously on reading translations. It's like watching a movie with subtitles. You're watching the movie, but not like it was originally written. Something is always lost in translation.
I totally agree with you, Ell. I don't think Belgians suck either. It's just that we're awfully bad at selling ourselves to a bigger public. Other than that... we're great!Originally posted by Ell
(though I don't think Belgians suck, lies
Do you really mean that? That subtitles take away something? For us Belgians (at least the Dutch-speaking Belgians) reading subtitles is like a second nature. I don't even notice it anymore; sometimes I even wish our Dutch programmes had subtitles as well, just because it's so easy. Of course, if I'm watching a French movie or a Swedish one, I pay more attention to the subtitles than when I'm watching an English one, but still.
I know it's practically impossible for the translator to translate everything literally, and I know there are bad and good translators out there, but if you're watching a movie, surely that's not the only thing on your mind? It's combining the original text with the translated text and the images... And I think that doesn't really take away a lot of the message they're trying to get accross, does it? Besides... Is there an alternative? (or am I missing the point here?)
I once had a discussion with Tobytook about the fact he didn't like to read books in their original non-English language, because he didn't get every nuance out of the book then. So he stuck with translations.
I try to read as many books as possible in their original language, because that way you get the "purest" idea of what the author was trying to do, even if you don't get every little nuance out of it. I don't even get every little nuance out of books I read in my native tongue, that's why re-reading is so much fun. And if a translator did a poor job, and some of the meaning and the "word-beauty" got lost, that would be lost forever, whereas when you read a book yourself, there's always hope of recovery of those things.
Sorry, I don't know how to navigate around here yet, I don't know how to insert quotes, etc. Bear with me. So...
I couldn't imagine there would be so much response to the little pebble I have thrown. There is a lot to answer to all of you. And, to start, of course Lies, we have a lot in common and I agree with you in most points (but no, Belgians don't suck. Scratch the surface of many a French celebrity, you'll find out he's Belgian).
Dawn, the commercial factor is paramount, of course. As I posted in another thread (what is a classic?), a rule of thumb definition, for me, is a book which, although outside the critics-publicity circuit, still retains its value and readership.
Coming to the translation question now. I think that, certainly not all, but a considerable number of the worth-while books written everywhere on this earth, are translated in English, and that's a good thing, since English is the 'lingua franca' of our era. There is a number of 'foreign' writers I discovered in their English translation and I am grateful for it So, the problem of the Eglish language reader, be he native or otherwise, is not availability.
That 'traditore e traduttore', is an old known axiom but we must live with it. Certainly, there is a lot which is lost in even the best of translations, (the worst case of course being poetry, Chinese and Japanese texts in particular due to the multisignificance of kanji ) but it's better than nothing.
Somehow, and correct me if I'm wrong, I think that, part of it at least, is some lack of curiosity.
To me, the world of books is an ocean in which we can chose our destination moved by our curiosity and tastes. An ocean made up not only of space but of time too. Freedom in space and time, with translation as our raft. Who can say better?
There is a lot to say of the person that digs just his own garden, deeper and deeper; he may end up finding a treasure. But, somehow, the freedom of moving over the waves, of getting to know 'the cities and minds of many a people' , is a different kind of thrill, even though this knowledge must remain superficial. (who can pretend to be a specialist of world litterature?)
I had better stop, because I am afraid I have thrown one more pebble.
Last note about subtitled movies. Reminds me of a Japanese movie. After you heard people talking to each other for about 5 minutes, there was just a three- or four- word subtitle to translate it all. Yet and still, I prefer movies in their original language. The authentic actor's voice can and does transmit much more of the meaning than the most accurate translation (let alone that some of them are really bad, even completely wrong or absurd). Otherwise you reduce the actor to a puppet with someone elses voice behind him
OK, that's all folks, for now. I don't even know how to use the speller. So if some mistake has escaped, 'mea culpa'.
are
I couldn't imagine there would be so much response to the little pebble I have thrown. There is a lot to answer to all of you. And, to start, of course Lies, we have a lot in common and I agree with you in most points (but no, Belgians don't suck. Scratch the surface of many a French celebrity, you'll find out he's Belgian).
Dawn, the commercial factor is paramount, of course. As I posted in another thread (what is a classic?), a rule of thumb definition, for me, is a book which, although outside the critics-publicity circuit, still retains its value and readership.
Coming to the translation question now. I think that, certainly not all, but a considerable number of the worth-while books written everywhere on this earth, are translated in English, and that's a good thing, since English is the 'lingua franca' of our era. There is a number of 'foreign' writers I discovered in their English translation and I am grateful for it So, the problem of the Eglish language reader, be he native or otherwise, is not availability.
That 'traditore e traduttore', is an old known axiom but we must live with it. Certainly, there is a lot which is lost in even the best of translations, (the worst case of course being poetry, Chinese and Japanese texts in particular due to the multisignificance of kanji ) but it's better than nothing.
Somehow, and correct me if I'm wrong, I think that, part of it at least, is some lack of curiosity.
To me, the world of books is an ocean in which we can chose our destination moved by our curiosity and tastes. An ocean made up not only of space but of time too. Freedom in space and time, with translation as our raft. Who can say better?
There is a lot to say of the person that digs just his own garden, deeper and deeper; he may end up finding a treasure. But, somehow, the freedom of moving over the waves, of getting to know 'the cities and minds of many a people' , is a different kind of thrill, even though this knowledge must remain superficial. (who can pretend to be a specialist of world litterature?)
I had better stop, because I am afraid I have thrown one more pebble.
Last note about subtitled movies. Reminds me of a Japanese movie. After you heard people talking to each other for about 5 minutes, there was just a three- or four- word subtitle to translate it all. Yet and still, I prefer movies in their original language. The authentic actor's voice can and does transmit much more of the meaning than the most accurate translation (let alone that some of them are really bad, even completely wrong or absurd). Otherwise you reduce the actor to a puppet with someone elses voice behind him
OK, that's all folks, for now. I don't even know how to use the speller. So if some mistake has escaped, 'mea culpa'.
are
The forum FAQ might be helpful then.
Don't dubbed movies and subtitled movies present us with the same problem? I mean, in order to have some voice actor say the lines of the original actor in another language, it has to be translated as well, doesn't it? Of course, I still prefer the subtitled one, because a) you get to know the other language, which is always fun, b) you get the right intonation and c) the actors don't look like fish trying to catch their breath.
As far as the lovely metaphor you got going there: I'll think about it and get back to you.
I agree about the puppet thing...perhaps the puppeteer needs to lay off the Jack Daniels and just stick to the puppets? I used to watch Godzilla movies when I was a kid all the time thinking, man this is so cool! A month or so ago I caught an old Godzilla movie on cable and it was a serious disappointment that was only magnified by the lousy dubbing. It may have even been better with subtitles.
All in all I agree that it would be better in the original language. Always more depth in the original language and you might miss some cultural innuendo with a straight translation. Same with books too, I guess. A word for word translation sometimes won't make any sense at all.
All in all I agree that it would be better in the original language. Always more depth in the original language and you might miss some cultural innuendo with a straight translation. Same with books too, I guess. A word for word translation sometimes won't make any sense at all.
Dawn
kickbox
Yes, I do. If the screenwriter/author intented his two paragraph dialog to be 4 words, then he/she would have written it in 4 words. I've watched Spanish-language movies with my husband, and he complains about the subtitles all the time. Beautiful passages are reduced to one line text.
In books, it's not just reducing passages (or the distilling of the message), it's the "what's lost in translation" issue I'm concerned with.
Is the message really getting across? I read some Spanish so I know that you can translate a sentence different ways. This is due, in part, to the fact that some things just don't directly translate. Also, cultural differences come into play. How can you translate that? What might mean one thing in one culture might not mean the same thing in another.
I don't think you're missing the point, lies, it's just me lamenting the fact that I can't read a foreign language enough to enjoy reading a book in it's original format. I don't think there is an alternative, in my case, unless I want to learn several languages - which I don't do very well. So...I'll have to make do with reading translations.
I have noticed that in American movies, yes. I'm not trying to say we're better or anything, but I've noticed that where some English translators translate a 5 minute speech in just a few lines, the Dutch translations I've come accross seem to be more elaborate. There's more than one movie I've seen where they have Korean, or Russian, or German, and the subtitles in English show something completely different (i.e. less elaborate) from the subtitles in Dutch. And they're both based on the same text.
Ell
Well-Known Member
Here's a link to a thread about non-anglo authors started by lies.
I also rely on English translations - and the translator really is the key. It took me 2 different translated versions before I could finish "Crime and Punishment". It's now one of my all-time favourite novels.
Wish I could read in the original language - (I know only enough French to slowly plod along and understand the gist of the story but lose most of the underlying meaning).
I really enjoyed "Foucault's Pendulum" by Umberto Eco and often wonder what Italian readers think of the translation. Anyone read the original Italian version?
Russians, Italians etc.
For Russian liiterature, I also have to reliy on translations. I really regret that I never learned a slavic language - a key to all other sl. l. - in time. I am afraid it's too late now, although I'm trying.
As far as Eco goes, I had enjoyed very much the 'Name of the Rose', but around the middle of 'Foucault's pendulum' which I read in Italian I got bored and dropped it. Same thing with 'The Island of the day after'. I don't know why they couldn't catch me. I almost decided never to try Eco again - I am talking of his fiction, not his semiotics. But then recently, at a bookshop, I read a couple of pages of his latest, 'Baudolino' and I think I will give him a chance, once more.
Maybe some day I will go back and finish them, but there is always so much to read, that I don't know when this day is going to be.
For Russian liiterature, I also have to reliy on translations. I really regret that I never learned a slavic language - a key to all other sl. l. - in time. I am afraid it's too late now, although I'm trying.
As far as Eco goes, I had enjoyed very much the 'Name of the Rose', but around the middle of 'Foucault's pendulum' which I read in Italian I got bored and dropped it. Same thing with 'The Island of the day after'. I don't know why they couldn't catch me. I almost decided never to try Eco again - I am talking of his fiction, not his semiotics. But then recently, at a bookshop, I read a couple of pages of his latest, 'Baudolino' and I think I will give him a chance, once more.
Maybe some day I will go back and finish them, but there is always so much to read, that I don't know when this day is going to be.
That's ok. I was just wondering... He could've written it in French... Like Beckett and En Attandent Godot/Waiting for Godot.Originally posted by Ell
Sorry, lies. I was rambling. Thinking of other languages in general.
The little Russian I knew, I've already forgotten... Why is it always so very difficult to remember everything you've ever learnt?
Dawn
kickbox
Yes, I know we were talking about books. I was using movies as as a way to describe how translations can be frustrating, if you want to know the author's/screenwriter original intent.
As far as books that I've read that were not originally written in English:
Umberto Eco - The Name of the Rose, Foucault's Pendulum, and several others, but I can't remember the title.
Isabel Allente - House of the Spirits, Daughter of Fortune, Paula, Infinite Plan, Eva Luna
Arturo Perez-Reverte - The Club Dumas, The Flander Panel, The Fencing Master
Those are the contemporary ones I could think of. I'm sure there's more.
nephele,
I was lucky to be exposed to many "non-Anglo" authors over the years. Unfortunately, I don't know any languages other than English, so I have to read them all in translation.
I have read works by authors as diverse as Jorge Luis Borges, Italo Calvino, Eco, Robbe-Grillet, Garcia-Marquez, Sartre, Camus, Haruki Murakami, Felipe Alfau, Bernardo Atxaga, etc. Most recently, I read W.G. Sebald's book The Rings of Saturn (a curious mixture of travelogue and meditation on death).
I think that there isn't a lack of interest in non-English speaking authors so much as there is a lack of information and exposure for such authors.
I was lucky to be exposed to many "non-Anglo" authors over the years. Unfortunately, I don't know any languages other than English, so I have to read them all in translation.
I have read works by authors as diverse as Jorge Luis Borges, Italo Calvino, Eco, Robbe-Grillet, Garcia-Marquez, Sartre, Camus, Haruki Murakami, Felipe Alfau, Bernardo Atxaga, etc. Most recently, I read W.G. Sebald's book The Rings of Saturn (a curious mixture of travelogue and meditation on death).
I think that there isn't a lack of interest in non-English speaking authors so much as there is a lack of information and exposure for such authors.