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Somethings missing....
- Thread starter cervantes
- Start date
True@1stLight
New Member
What's wrong with having a bard in a movie?! I think it would be have been a great addition....although I think pretty much everything in movie's was a great addition to the books.
That had to be a tough call because without that whole Bombadil/Barrow-wight sequence you completely miss why Pip's sword did so much damage to the Witch King and part of how Aragorn was able to pick up on thier trail and all sorts of little storyline tidbits.
I think they could have finessed it and at least put it in the platnium edition or something like that had they not been constrained by time, budget--you know little things.
I think they could have finessed it and at least put it in the platnium edition or something like that had they not been constrained by time, budget--you know little things.
True@1stLight
New Member
I agree it would have added an important segment to the story though.
Themistocles
New Member
A) Bombadil isn't a bard, he's a Maia.
B) I think much of the movie-going public would not 'get' Tom Bombadil, and would see him as an annoying, prancing prat, missing the subtle hints at his true power (the ring having no effect on him, for instance).
B) I think much of the movie-going public would not 'get' Tom Bombadil, and would see him as an annoying, prancing prat, missing the subtle hints at his true power (the ring having no effect on him, for instance).
Nosferatu Man
New Member
Yeah, however much I missed Tom Bombadil in the movie, on closer examination I agree wholeheartedly with Themistocles. That's one of my favourite parts of the story: when Tom puts the Ring on and doesn't disappear and then, when Frodo tries to sneak out with the Ring on, Tom sees him and calls him back.
Nosferatu Man
New Member
Wow, is he?! Are you sure? Why would he leave Taniquetil to reside in Middle-Earth though? I'm not sure I'm convinced as yet. I did a bit of research on Tom in the Encyclopedia of Arda and other places a few months ago, but I've forgotten to what conclusion I came. I thought he was a Maia infact.
An idea has just come to me though: if he isn't a Maia as you say, then he could be Tulkas. That would fit just about perfectly with Tulkas's humour and his strength, but then I'm not so sure that Tulkas is as in touch with nature as Tom is. But, I suppose being a Vala, he will be much more in touch with nature than your average Tom, Dick or Harry anyway, and it would fit that Tom is Tulkas.
An idea has just come to me though: if he isn't a Maia as you say, then he could be Tulkas. That would fit just about perfectly with Tulkas's humour and his strength, but then I'm not so sure that Tulkas is as in touch with nature as Tom is. But, I suppose being a Vala, he will be much more in touch with nature than your average Tom, Dick or Harry anyway, and it would fit that Tom is Tulkas.
One of those. Tulkas, Manwe...Don't forget about the girl, though. He wouldn't be the first guy on the block to do something unexpected for a woman. Can't remember the name of Manwe's love...hmmm. Must read more.
I KNOW he's not a maia though case in point...Gandalf was dreadfully afraid of the Ring and what it might do to him. TB laughed and swirled it around the end of his finger without a care--which to me proves he's not of Middle Earth at the least.
(Oh Yes! And thanks for the ARDA link. Theres a great Article there on Bombadil that doesn't rule out his being Manwe or Goldberry being Varda for that matter. And didn't Frodo want to know who and why he was picked to dispose of the ring? He found out early and didn't know it.)
I KNOW he's not a maia though case in point...Gandalf was dreadfully afraid of the Ring and what it might do to him. TB laughed and swirled it around the end of his finger without a care--which to me proves he's not of Middle Earth at the least.
(Oh Yes! And thanks for the ARDA link. Theres a great Article there on Bombadil that doesn't rule out his being Manwe or Goldberry being Varda for that matter. And didn't Frodo want to know who and why he was picked to dispose of the ring? He found out early and didn't know it.)
Nosferatu Man
New Member
Manwë's love was given to Varda, and Tulkas loved Nessa. Concerning Nessa (Goldberry?): 'In dancing she delights, and she dances in Valimar on lawns of never-fading green.' That would fit perfectly with Goldberry I deem. I think I'm definately much more comfortable with the idea of Tulkas and Nessa being Tom Bombadil and Goldberry. I think if Tom was Manwë, he would want to travel around a lot more, and not limit himself just to the plains around the hill where he lives - however, Manwë seldom left Valinor as I would have thought he would. A more concrete statment is: that Tom doesn't like the idea of being the master of anything, whereas Manwë was the big King of the Valar and everyone else.
Good point about Gandalf being absolutely afraid of the ring. I'd completely overlooked that. Good work, Prolixic.
Good point about Gandalf being absolutely afraid of the ring. I'd completely overlooked that. Good work, Prolixic.
*buff nails
My thought last night--we watched the Two Towers again--was this. Manwe and Varda were the first to enter Middle Earth, which jives with Bombadil being called the First. Also, one of the points raised in what I read was that Gandalf and others of the wise should have known him for what he was. First, I don't know that they'd ever been close enough to him to detect what he was and secondly I think that they'd know what he wasn't more easily. What I mean by that is that Gandalf might know what a maia or a balrog, but they were equals or at least creatures of the same sort. If Bombadil was any sort of Ainur(?)(Is that right?) he would be able to exist completely outside their knowledge and influence.
Here's the other bit. Varda was Elbereth, the one the High Elves thought so highly of--I.e., worshipped. It would make sense to me that she would be near some of their last strongholds to watch over them--see Gray Havens and Rivendell which are both on the Shire side of the Mountains.
The other thing I though about bout knocked me over. Where the heck did the Hobbits come from? No one seems to know for sure, but it wouldn't surprise me if Manwe (Bombadil) knocked them together just for the purpose of beating Sauron by disposing of the ring. They weren't immune to its effects, but they were certainly more able to bear them than other folks or so it seems.
My thought last night--we watched the Two Towers again--was this. Manwe and Varda were the first to enter Middle Earth, which jives with Bombadil being called the First. Also, one of the points raised in what I read was that Gandalf and others of the wise should have known him for what he was. First, I don't know that they'd ever been close enough to him to detect what he was and secondly I think that they'd know what he wasn't more easily. What I mean by that is that Gandalf might know what a maia or a balrog, but they were equals or at least creatures of the same sort. If Bombadil was any sort of Ainur(?)(Is that right?) he would be able to exist completely outside their knowledge and influence.
Here's the other bit. Varda was Elbereth, the one the High Elves thought so highly of--I.e., worshipped. It would make sense to me that she would be near some of their last strongholds to watch over them--see Gray Havens and Rivendell which are both on the Shire side of the Mountains.
The other thing I though about bout knocked me over. Where the heck did the Hobbits come from? No one seems to know for sure, but it wouldn't surprise me if Manwe (Bombadil) knocked them together just for the purpose of beating Sauron by disposing of the ring. They weren't immune to its effects, but they were certainly more able to bear them than other folks or so it seems.
Nosferatu Man
New Member
Hehe, I hope you didn't hurt yourself. Yeah, you're right about him being an Ainur - they were the offspring of Eru Ilúvatar's thoughts in the form of music, when the world was extremely young - but when they came to Arda, they were just called the Valar. I agree that he would be able to live completely outside of their knowledge, but I don't agree that he would live outside their influence. To explain: I'm a musician in waking life, and I reckon that I (can) be influenced and inspired by the Universe, but it's outside of my knowledge in that I don't understand what the hell it is. I don't want to drag on about this point just at the moment, but I reckon we all (including everything else in nature) have a soul, and that simply put, the soul is the Universe, and the Universe is a soul. So I get inspiration from my soul. That's what I mean when I say the Universe inspires and influences me.
Something that really dissuades me from agreeing with you though, is that Tom was very reluctant to get involved with the wars, and Gandalf said of him that if the ring was put into his possession, he would just put it somewhere and forget about it. That's something that I think Tulkas would be very likely to do - he was exceedingly strong but he much preferred laughter to war, and would have been very quick to forget about dark matters such as Sauron's Ring.
Also, I was thinking about Varda being Elbereth, and the cries of help to her the Elves put into Song, etc. I always imagine her to be some sort of legendary figure that the Elves know little about, and would be unlikely to live in Middle-Earth, relatively close to the people who call for her help on occasion.
I don't know how and where the Hobbits originated, but I'm dubious that Manwë knocked them together just to beat Sauron. For one thing, I still think that he's in his Halls on Taniquetil and isn't bothered about the goings-on of Middle-Earth, and also, it would have been a very long job to create the Hobbits just to destroy Sauron. It would have been easier and quicker for himself to just take the thing and throw it into the Fire - or indeed, destroy it by his own means. But... there is a but: I do think that Tulkas (my dear Tulkas) might possibly have created them. Hobbits love humour and innocence, and food, and just generally having a good time, and don't care much for adventures or wars, or Dark Lords (however scared of them they are), and some of those characteristics, Tulkas has for himself. Well, mainly the humour and innocence. But, I don't think that he would have created them just to destroy Sauron. I don't think he would have had any intention for them at all, except to live as innocently and happily as possible.
Something that really dissuades me from agreeing with you though, is that Tom was very reluctant to get involved with the wars, and Gandalf said of him that if the ring was put into his possession, he would just put it somewhere and forget about it. That's something that I think Tulkas would be very likely to do - he was exceedingly strong but he much preferred laughter to war, and would have been very quick to forget about dark matters such as Sauron's Ring.
Also, I was thinking about Varda being Elbereth, and the cries of help to her the Elves put into Song, etc. I always imagine her to be some sort of legendary figure that the Elves know little about, and would be unlikely to live in Middle-Earth, relatively close to the people who call for her help on occasion.
I don't know how and where the Hobbits originated, but I'm dubious that Manwë knocked them together just to beat Sauron. For one thing, I still think that he's in his Halls on Taniquetil and isn't bothered about the goings-on of Middle-Earth, and also, it would have been a very long job to create the Hobbits just to destroy Sauron. It would have been easier and quicker for himself to just take the thing and throw it into the Fire - or indeed, destroy it by his own means. But... there is a but: I do think that Tulkas (my dear Tulkas) might possibly have created them. Hobbits love humour and innocence, and food, and just generally having a good time, and don't care much for adventures or wars, or Dark Lords (however scared of them they are), and some of those characteristics, Tulkas has for himself. Well, mainly the humour and innocence. But, I don't think that he would have created them just to destroy Sauron. I don't think he would have had any intention for them at all, except to live as innocently and happily as possible.
