Stranger In A Strange Land - beware: spoilers

[Jenem]

i just finished this book. i really enjoyed the first portion of the novel- until it got heavily into religion. i did find aspects of Mike's "church" enlightening, and open love and property sound good in theory. i am confused about Mike's opinion of homosexuality. Mike grok's wrongness with gay men, and yet I am sure there are 3somes with 2 women and one man. And if love and the act of love is so central to life, how can 2 men loving eachother be wrong? additionally, i detected underlying mysogynistic tones that bothered me. the women were so subservient, i was kinda disgusted. when Jill says "9 times out of 10 when a woman gets raped it's partly her own fault" shocked and offended me. i realize it was written in the 50's, but for a novel so far ahead of its time i didn't expect so much thinking from the dark ages. i really enjoyed the book on the whole- the Martian way of thinking and concept of time was very interesting. but my opinion is really mixed on this one.

 

[Prolixic]

Heinlein does that. I am not sure if that was his opinion or if he was just trying to stir up trouble. Personally, I think it makes a sorry commentary or religion but as a story its pretty good.

It's been a few years since I read that one of his and I am trying to remember the context of the rape comment and failing miserably. Usually the best thing to do is read more Heinlein, then go back and read Stranger in a Strange Land again.

 

[Wolhay]

Where in the book does Mike state that homosexuality is wrong?

Through the reoccurring character Lazarus Long in Heinlein's books I've got the impression that Heinlein at first thought that there wasn't anything wrong with homosexuality but that he couldn't get past a personal "dislike" for it since the promiscuous characters are shunning it but that he eventually became more "open" towards it.

In "Time Enough for Love" for example there are two characters in protective suits that covers both appearance and voices and they are having a dialogue similar to this:

-How about a couple of hours of ecstasy?
-Sure
-What gender are you by the way?
-Does it make any difference?
-Nope

The quote about rape can be interpreted differently. Either as the woman is to be blamed or that the woman contributed with factors that lead to a rape. If someone for example states that it's partly someone's fault that they were raped when they walked naked in the park at midnight it doesn't necessarily mean that that person doesn't think that anyone should be able to walk around naked at any time in public without being harassed. But I agree that the quote is odd in this book.

The women of Heinlein's books are something of a two sided coin. They're usually rational, forward and sexually liberated but they're also to an extent subservient to their boyfriends or husbands.

The part that disgusted me the most in "Stranger in a Strange Land" was that Jubal that pretty much had been a spokesperson for individuality and rationality throughout the entire book promoted the collectivist group in the end.

 

[Jenem]

Where in the book does Mike state that homosexuality is wrong?

In the book I have it's on page 303:
...she (Jill) had explained homosexuality, after Mike had read about it and failed to grok- and had given him rules for avoiding such passes; she knew that Mike, pretty as he was, would attract such...Jill suspected that Mike would grok a "wrongness" in the poor in-betweeners anyhow- they would never be offered water.

True, Mike is not explicitly stated to grok the wrongness (Jill only suspects); however, his inability to grok is an indication that Jill is probably correct. And you didn't read of any 'guy on guy' action in the novel. But there was that one part where Ben gets freaked out because Mike is sitting with him and Jill, and suddenly Mike's clothes are off, so Ben runs away. Now Ben is Mike's water brother, but he is not gay. That's a tough one to reconcile

The quote about rape can be interpreted differently. Either as the woman is to be blamed or that the woman contributed with factors that lead to a rape. If someone for example states that it's partly someone's fault that they were raped when they walked naked in the park at midnight it doesn't necessarily mean that that person doesn't think that anyone should be able to walk around naked at any time in public without being harassed. But I agree that the quote is odd in this book.

I don't get how your interpretations of the rape quote are rationalized. Anyway, no matter how you lay it (and I don't want to start a big argument about this) in my opinion the rape statement is offensive and bullshit. And a whole other thread. If I recall, it came about in the part where Jill has a stint as an exotic dancer. And her wish that Mike continue to not "remove" threatening people. I found the quote odd because of its backward thinking, not because of its context.

It was great to read about these intelligent, ration women- but the subservience (is that a word?) is what bothered me. Sure, you read that men cooked in the "church" but the women were always at the men's beck and call, doing everything else. It put me off.

When Jubal joined I had mixed feelings. I figured it was inevitable, though. Could one retain their individuality living in Mike's "church"? Is it just a way of living, like we have now? Hard to say.

 

[Joe_Buddha]

Heinlen

Heinlen is a very complex character, and you can't take his fictional characters as speaking for him. His views on sexuality, among other things, changed quite a bit over the years as well. I believe that this may have been an example of what he thought about Homosexuality at the time; however, in his later books he seems to have changed his mind.

As to the rape comment, I believe that was out of the mouth of his character and not his own belief. That's not a slam-dunk, however; at times he can sport the reddest of necks while at others spouting the most amazingly liberal opinions imaginable!

I must agree, however, that the comment was both untrue and uncalled for, especially in one of his most thoughtful and insightful works.