The Great Conversation

[Halcyon]

I’ve been thinking about the skills involved with reading and understanding literature for the last few weeks. This process has occupied many hours, and I’ve conclude that I was missing out on enormous development by not educating myself through reading on a daily basis.

Isaac Watts advised his readers in his self-education treatise “Improvement of the Mind”,

Acquaint yourself with your own ignorance. Impress your mind with a deep and painful sense of the low and imperfect degree of your present knowledge.

What I am seeking now is a method of evolution. How does a person know their current level of education? I imagine it is all relative to who you are comparing yourself against, but in regards to the population at whole, how does a person tell where they fit in? At what point does a person reach mastery of the great conversation?

 

[honeydevil]

What I am seeking now is a method of evolution. How does a person know their current level of education? I imagine it is all relative to who you are comparing yourself against, but in regards to the population at whole, how does a person tell where they fit in? At what point does a person reach mastery of the great conversation?

Do you really have to fit in?? what does it matter where your education is?? I think you worry too much about things... and why should you compare yourself to anybody?? Nobody is like you and if you want to be a master of a great conversation, then search for people you like and a great conversation comes from alone, without even knowing! if you talk to people, they think there better then you or you just don't like them, you will have a real hard time to talk to them!!
just my opinion
bye

 

[Ell]

What I am seeking now is a method of evolution.

I don't think there is a "method" to one's own evolution. By definition, evolution occurs slowly and in small increments. It's more of a process whereby we grow and change as a result of our life experiences. There is always more to learn and experience. The process is never static. In other words, you evolve as you live and exerience life; be it through reading, personal relationships, your job, or chance encounters. It can't be methodical.

How does a person know their current level of education? I imagine it is all relative to who you are comparing yourself against, but in regards to the population at whole, how does a person tell where they fit in?

Why do you need to know this? Yes, it is relative, but seems irrelevant. If you pigeonhole others - and yourself - to a certain level, what purpose does it serve other than to place imaginary boundaries: "I'll talk to him because I'm at their level; I won't talk to her because she's beneath me; etc."

At what point does a person reach mastery of the great conversation?

Define 'great conversation'.

Is this what you were looking for - or did I completely miss your point?

I'm of the opinion that we go through life stumbling along - whether we know it or not - and that while it's comforting to think we're in control, there's way too much that is beyond control. Therefore, don't obsess too much on where you fit in (intellectually or otherwise). You can find great conversations in the most mundane of places with the most unlikely people; and you'll have the most mind-numbingly boring conversations with supposedly intelligent people.

ell

 

[Halcyon]

I don’t think there is a correct, or at least universal answer, to the question of how educated, wise, or enlightened a person is. And I would not be so bold as to define the great conversation. But I would point to the words of the acclaimed writer, photographer and activist Walter Lippman,

It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf.

In this frame of mind, I believe there is a continuum regarding “skills involved with reading and understanding literature” and we all fit in somewhere regardless of whether we want to or not. This might seem inconsequential but all these books I’m reading about classical education, proper analysis, self-education have opened my eyes to bigger things.

As I said in my original post – I’m looking for a method of evaluation on how well ‘read’ I am. This is not a social class issue. It’s not about being better than anyone else; It’s a self-improvement goal. I’ve been galvanized by the stories of the erudite who peruse understanding as if it was life itself. It’s amazing how I never heard anything about how Jefferson advised his college-aged nephew to peruse the larger part of his education independently, and so many others who spent years studying books (clearly hard work) in an attempt to obtain enlightenment. While perhaps this form of self evaluation can be called inconsequential, remember what Socrates said:

"The unexamined life is not worth living."

And Einstein:

He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.

There is no way a person can post the answer to the question: “at what point does a person reach mastery of the great conversation?” But this is a question I find fascinating and I appreciate what you guys think. I leave you with this quotation from Mark Twain,

"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them."

 

[novella]

Reading deeply

To equate reading a lot with self-education is flawed. One can cook spaghetti every night and not be a good cook or understand anything about the science of cooking.

I think an interesting topic for a thread that would probably never take off is how to learn to read more deeply.

I am ever frustrated by the level of conversation about books that is basically "I liked it. It was good. Did you like it too?" To me, that is not a conversation worth having.

One can read slowly and even just occasionally and be a very educated, deep reader who consciously develops a good understanding of the structure, human context, historical context, frame of influence, social import, etc. of literature. Better, IMO, to read As I Lay Dying over 6 months than to rip through 9 Tom Clancy books in the same time.

That said, a person who never reads anything can be a wonderful conversational partner. I'm reading the Songlines now, and some of the "uneducated" Aboriginal characters (based on real people) are the most fascinating, amusing, and attractive talespinners in the book. I would love to meet and talk with them. And they don't read, for the most part.

To me, these are completely disconnected skills:understanding literature deeply and in context, and being a skilled communicator.

Haven't you met loads of very educated guys who were downright boring to talk with? Lots of people just never get the chance to develop that skill. In fact, MIT has a new program to help its students become better socializers, because they have historicallly fallen short in that area, which affects their job prospects.

 

[True@1stLight]

I think an interesting topic for a thread that would probably never take off is how to learn to read more deeply.

I am ever frustrated by the level of conversation about books that is basically "I liked it. It was good. Did you like it too?" To me, that is not a conversation worth having.

I actually would be very interested in such a thread. I believe everyone has their strengths and weaknesses in reading just as in anything else. Ie. I don't have to work as hard to pull out philosophical implications , yet I struggle and seemingly overlook societal context. A thread that shared ideas on improving in these weak areas would be undeniably beneficial for many people here that wish to fully appreciate a book. Whether it would go uninterrupted by spam.... not so sure.

 

[Ell]

I actually would be very interested in such a thread. I believe everyone has their strengths and weaknesses in reading just as in anything else. Ie. I don't have to work as hard to pull out philosophical implications , yet I struggle and seemingly overlook societal context. A thread that shared ideas on improving in these weak areas would be undeniably beneficial for many people here that wish to fully appreciate a book. Whether it would go uninterrupted by spam.... not so sure.

I think this is the sort of topic that would address many of Halcyon's questions (posed in other threads) regarding becoming a better reader.

It's true that many threads in the forum are of the type novella mentioned. However, I think much of it is due to the broad age-range and varied interests of the membership. Discussions can only go deeper if individual members make it so. I doubt that any thread will go uninterupted by a certain amount of spam, but it needn't take over if the main participants stay on-track.

So how about one of you starting such a thread and see what happens?

ell

 

[Cathy C]

Originally posted by ELL: So how about one of you starting such a thread and see what happens?

Fair enough. I'd participate. Sounds like an interesting topic.

 

[Ell]

Fair enough. I'd participate. Sounds like an interesting topic.

Novella started it and here it is!