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Alternate History

SLot Dave

New Member
Ya know, I couldn't find a thread about this. My apologies in advance if I simply didn't look hard enough. Kind of surprised that the topic hasn't come up.

Off the top of my head...

S.M. (Steve) Stirling - Dies the Fire, Conquistador, Island in the Sea of Time (the Nantucket trilogy), The Peshawar Lancers. If you enjoy SF alternate history, Stirling is a must-read.

Eric Flint's 1630's series. Fun stuff.

Harry Turtledove. I tried to read 'em, honest. The only one I truly enjoyed was Guns of the South.

Any recommendations?
 
Ive read a lot of the Harry Turtledove stuff, I also enjoyed Guns of the South and the first couple of the subsequent American War series. The 'Balance' World War II series dragged a little by the third book, and I found myself not giving much of a damn when all the characters started getting killed off. I dont think I ever got round to reading the fourth book, although I'm sure Ive got it around here somewhere ... :)

Apart from that I havnt read much Alternate History, although I was interested in finding a series of books I saw written by serious historians with theories on what would have happened if certain historical events had happended differently, ie. the Nazis had conquered Britain in 1942, etc.

Phil
 
There are a couple of counterfactual history collections actually written by historians, some quite big names (in certain circles), that are well worth a look. I think they're just called 'What if?' 1 and 2
 
How about Bruce Stirling & William Gibson's The Difference Engine It's a "steam punk" alternate history novel. It's based on the premise that Charles Babbage actually built his mechanical computer "The Difference Engine" and it brought the computer age to the world 200 years early. Can't remember too much about the actual plot of the novel. I remember that I liked it but was not overwhelmed although alternate history novels are not really my thing so... :)

I havent read it but heard a lot of good things about Kim Stanly Robinson's The Years of Rice and Salt

Here is the low down on this very complex novel from Amzon:

Editorial Reviews

Amazon.com
Award-winning author Kim Stanley Robinson delivers a thoughtful and powerful examination of cultures and the people who shape them. How might human history be different if 14th-century Europe was utterly wiped out by plague, and Islamic and Buddhist societies emerged as the world's dominant religious and political forces? The Years of Rice and Salt considers this question through the stories of individuals who experience and influence various crucial periods in the seven centuries that follow. The credible alternate history that Robinson constructs becomes the framework for a tapestry of ideas about philosophy, science, theology, and politics.
At the heart of the story are fundamental questions: what is the purpose of life and death? Are we eternal? Do our choices matter? The particular achievement of this book is that it weaves these threads into a story that is both intellectually and emotionally engaging. This is a highly recommended, challenging, and ambitious work. --Roz Genessee

Product Description:
With the incomparable vision and breathtaking detail that brought his now-classic Mars trilogy to vivid life, bestselling author KIM STANLEY ROBINSON boldly imagines an alternate history of the last seven hundred years. In his grandest work yet, the acclaimed storyteller constructs a world vastly different from the one we know....

The Years of Rice and Salt

It is the fourteenth century and one of the most apocalyptic events in human history is set to occur–the coming of the Black Death. History teaches us that a third of Europe’s population was destroyed. But what if? What if the plague killed 99 percent of the population instead? How would the world have changed? This is a look at the history that could have been–a history that stretches across centuries, a history that sees dynasties and nations rise and crumble, a history that spans horrible famine and magnificent innovation. These are the years of rice and salt.

This is a universe where the first ship to reach the New World travels across the Pacific Ocean from China and colonization spreads from west to east. This is a universe where the Industrial Revolution is triggered by the world’s greatest scientific minds–in India. This is a universe where Buddhism and Islam are the most influential and practiced religions and Christianity is merely a historical footnote.

Through the eyes of soldiers and kings, explorers and philosophers, slaves and scholars, Robinson renders an immensely rich tapestry. Rewriting history and probing the most profound questions as only he can, Robinson shines his extraordinary light on the place of religion, culture, power, and even love on such an Earth. From the steppes of Asia to the shores of the Western Hemisphere, from the age of Akbar to the present and beyond, here is the stunning story of the creation of a new world.

Actually, reading all that makes me want to buy it! :D Has anybody read this? What do you think of it?
 
how about "fatherland" by robert harris, in this one the nazis won the war, and keeped the holocaust a secret, nice one, and interesting hbo film based on this one.
 
Neal Stephenson's "Cryptonomicon" is amazing look at the role cryptology played in WWII and appears to be part of a larger mosaic that he's putting together in "The Baroque Series" that begins in the 17th century and traces the history of how computers came about ... from the book jacket of Quicksilver, the first book of the trilogy:

"A gloriously rich, entertaining, and endlessly inventive novel that brings a remarkable age and its momentous events to vivid life -- a historical epic populated by the likes of Samuel Pepys, Isaac Newton, William of Orange, Benjamin Franklin, and King Louis XIV -- Quicksilver is an extraordinary achievement from one of the most original and important literary talents of our time."

Stephenson is an incredible writer, able to explain complex theories and processes with literary flair, and is equally adept at breathing life into his characters, fictional and non-fictional. I really liked Crypto and fully intend on reading the Baroque books.
 
mr_michel said:
how about "fatherland" by robert harris, in this one the nazis won the war, and keeped the holocaust a secret, nice one, and interesting hbo film based on this one.

Definitely, a thoroughly good read, if rather alarming.
 
I would recommend Orson Scott Card's "The Redemption of Christopher Columbus". It is more in the line of time-travel sci-fi altering timelines, but it is fascinating.
 
1610 is a great read by Mary Gentle
Amazon review:
Mary Gentle is widely known for what I like to call "historical fantasy." 1610: A Sundial in a Grave barely meets the definition of fantasy or science fiction, with the only fantastic element being the fact that mathematical precognition is a reality. She's also known as a meticulous researcher, and she shows that again in this book. 1610 is a wonderful book that just starts a little too slow.

1610 is a year of change. Edward Fludd has perfected the mathematics of telling the future. However, he doesn't like what he sees, so he determines to change it. This is the year where that change becomes possible. Valentin Rochefort, a duellist and down on his luck aristocrat, as well as servant to the French spymaster Sully, is having his own problems. He is supposed to set up the assassination of his monarch, Henry IV, but it's designed to be a fake. Too bad for him that it happens to succeed. Disgraced and forced to run, he encounters his nemesis, Dariole, who revels in humiliating him, especially by being 16 years old and able to beat him at swordplay. Dariole ends up running with him, and they both find themselves trapped in Fludd's web. Fludd intends to use Rochefort in an assassination of his own, one that will change the future the way he wants it to be. With the addition of a shipwrecked Japanese samurai, agendas clash, different honor systems conflict, and secrets are revealed. The story goes all over the world, from France to England to Portugal and then to Japan before returning for an intriguing finish. There's even time for a little romance as well.

1610 is written as if it were a computer-generated reconstructed translation of a fire-damaged manuscript written by Rochefort. This allows the "translator" to include other documents as well, so each part (the book is separated into five) begins with something other than his memoirs. Sometimes it's a translator's note or a partially reconstructed entry from Saburo to his Japanese liege-lord. These give us a little bit more background information that Rochefort wouldn't necessarily be privy to, enabling the reader to have a more well-rounded story. It's an effective way to write, and Rochefort makes a wonderful narrator. He's witty and he's not afraid to admit his own mistakes (and there are many). The only thing that's not completely realistic about this is that there is no white-washing whatsoever. There's no effort to make Rochefort look good, which is what would probably happen with anybody else's memoirs. Rochefort's honesty is refreshing, however.

With the book being told in first person, it would have been very easy to make the other characters wooden. Thankfully, Gentle avoids this, with both Dariole and Saburo being superb. The relationship between Dariole and Rochefort is riveting, especially when Dariole's secret is revealed and Rochefort has to adjust. Saburo is fascinating because Japan is an unknown entity at this point, with just a few western explorers having been there. The culture clash between Saburo and Rochefort, and even Dariole to an extent (though Dariole seems a lot more willing to learn from Saburo, being only 16 and impressionable) makes a good subplot to the main action. It gets even more interesting when Saburo has to choose between duty to his leader and duty to the man who saved his life. Gentle handles all of these differing cultures admirably, showing again how detailed her research is.

The only bad thing I have to say about the book is that the beginning is horribly slow. I almost gave up on it after 60 pages, especially when a bizarre sexual encounter took place. I was beginning to wonder if this is the type of book that I'm not interested in reading. I persevered, though, and discovered a rich, yet clearly adult, novel with wonderful prose and fascinating characters. Once Rochefort and Dariole leave Paris, the book takes off at a frenetic yet leisurely pace. I know that doesn't appear to make sense, but the story seems to be moving even when Gentle is pausing for breath. 1610 is a book that's hard to put down, even during these breaks. When there's no action, there are still plenty of ideas being put forward, or beautiful character interaction to keep the reader entertained.

I have to reiterate that this is definitely an adult novel. There are some sexual situations in it, as well as some adult concepts. As long as that doesn't bother you, 1610 is a wonderful book




Only bit I'd disagree with is the slow start, I actually thought the ending dragged out a bit.
 
a little embarasing, comic book "what if" and all that my fav is when conan met captain america.......... excuse my geek alter self. :D i loved those.
 
The 163x universe by Eric Flint is a great series. I'm anxiously awaiting the next tomes so we can find out what happens to Grantville. :D

I like some of Harry Turtledove's books -- not his American alternative history ones, however. Too.. fantastical? Dunno.

However, I consider his Ruled Britannia to be one of my favorite books. The question posed is "what if?" Queen Isabella's Spanish Armada had defeated Queen Elizabeth I's Royal British Navy and all of the implications of a ruled Britain. Amazon description follows.

Bestseller Turtledove (American Empire, etc.) buckles a handsome Elizabethan swash with his latest fascinating what if: suppose the Spanish Armada had beaten the Virgin Queen's little navy and reimposed on England the fanatic Roman Catholicism of Bloody Mary Tudor and her ruthless husband, Philip II of Spain. For almost a decade, the English have chafed under Philip's daughter Isabella and her Austrian consort, as well as the Inquisition, enforced by arrogant dons, their hired-gun Irish gallowglasses (rumored to be cannibals) and English Catholic sympathizers. Good Queen Bess languishes in the Tower of London while her supporters plot rebellion-to be sparked by no less than a patriotic new play by Will Shakespeare, Turtledove's lovingly drawn hero, who's drawn willy-nilly into the conspiracy by Elizabeth's former minister, Lord Burghley. The author revels in complex turns of language and spouts brilliant adaptations of the real Shakespeare's immortal lines. Superbly realized historical figures include the "darkly handsome," doomed Kit Marlowe and the Machiavellian Robert Cecil. Equally engaging are such lesser characters as the "cunning woman" Cicely Sellis, who "thinks of England." Turtledove has woven an intricate and thoroughly engrossing portrait of an era, a theatrical tradition, a heroic band of English brothers and their sneering overlords. O, brave alternative world that has such people in't!

I also like the Menedemos and Sostratos books (Over the Wine-Dark Sea, The Gryphon's Skull, The Sacred Land, and Owls to Athens) that Harry Turtledove has written under his pseudonym H.N. Turteltaub. While they aren't really alternative history, they are historical fiction set in the Mediterranean about 15 years after the death of Alexander the Great. The two forementioned characters, Menedemos and Sostratos, are Rhodian cousins who are merchants and, in their books, go on sea adventures from Israel to Italy.
 
I also like the Menedemos and Sostratos books (Over the Wine-Dark Sea, The Gryphon's Skull, The Sacred Land, and Owls to Athens) that Harry Turtledove has written under his pseudonym H.N. Turteltaub.

I finished the first one yesterday. An entertaining novel but I feel like nothing much happened.
they sail to Italy, make money, fight off pirates and thieves, have affairs, etc.
. Okay, maybe a few things did happen, but when reading it I kept thinking "That's it?" I liked the book, though I doubt it will be remembered as a classic piece of historical fiction.

In addition to the Greek seafaring novels he also wrote Justinian. As with Over the Wine-Dark Sea, not a great literary accomplishment, but it was pretty good.
 
Wabbit said:
I havent read it but heard a lot of good things about Kim Stanly Robinson's The Years of Rice and Salt
...Actually, reading all that makes me want to buy it! :D Has anybody read this? What do you think of it?

I've read it, Wabbit, and I thought it was pretty good. Lots of really interesting (though subtle) observations about life, history and human nature contained within, plus a really interesting view of Eastern beliefs and culture.

I've also read Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher Columbus by Orson Scott Card and I liked that even more - it was a lot more fast-paced than The Years of Rice and Salt.
 
A couple I've enjoyed.
Resurrection Day - Brendan Dubois (If the Cuban Missle Crisis had turned into a shooting war)
The Plot Against America - Philip Roth (Follows the journey of one American Jewish family in the WWII era when the US allies itself with Nazi Germany to stay out of the war.)

Count me among those who like the genre but can't do Turtledove
 
I haven't read these yet, so I can't vouch for their quality, but John Birmingham is writing a trilogy about 21st century weapons being introduced in World War II (I think via time travel...not sure).

The trilogy is called the Axis of Time.

Book 1: Weapons of Choice http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345457129/sr=8-2/qid=1145900855/ref=pd_bbs_2/104-7034330-7501562?%5Fencoding=UTF8

Book 2: Designated Targets http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345457145/ref=pd_bxgy_text_b/104-7034330-7501562?%5Fencoding=UTF8

Book 3: The Last Good War should be out by the end of 2006.

Once again I don't know how good these books are other than its a neweralternate history trilogy.
 
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