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40k words enough?

leckert

leckert

New Member
I finished my first novel(?) this weekend!

(Yay!)

I still have a lot of editing/rewriting to do, but I am at around 42k words (obviously no "War and Peace").

In the opinion of ye the learned, is this enough to be considered, or should I try to add another 20-30k?

I originally had 35k, and have filled in some back story, but I think the tale is pretty well told. I may be able to add another 5-7k on one character.

What do publishers look for as far as word count goes?

Am I worrying too much about this?
 
Some novels for children and teenagers can be that short. Some romance novels too. 60,000 is a more normal minimum for most categories. 70-80,000 is better.
 
Mari said:
Some novels for children and teenagers can be that short. Some romance novels too. 60,000 is a more normal minimum for most categories. 70-80,000 is better.
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That's kind of what I was thinking, Mari. Thanks for your input.
 
Is there anyway you can add another 20k words without ruining your story? Perhaps making it more in depth or introducing another line to the story. I was of the understanding that publishers aren't really looking for first novels of that length. I had heard both 60k and 80k as minimums. I, of course don't know if it's true, or if it's just rumor. Perhaps engaging an agent and seeking their professional opinion might be a good idea.
 
Does this look right?

Up to 100 words = micro fiction
100 - 1000 words = flash fiction
1000 - 7500 words = short story
7500 - 13.5/20,000 words = novellette
13.5/20,000 - 40/50,000 words = novella
40/50,000 - 110/150,000 words = novel
110/150,000 plus = epic novel

I'm not sure if there are definite numbers set in place, because everywhere I look I see numbers similar to these, if not +/- a thousand words / 10,000 words. I have read 60,000 - 100,000 is the recommended length requested by most agencies and publishers for first-time novels. They frown at anything shorter than 60K, or anything longer than 100K.

If you can add in another 20-30K words without stretching out the story too much, I would say go for it and make it into a novel; otherwise, I'd recommend editing the crap out of what you've got to tighten it into one bitchin' novella.
 
mehastings said:
Is there anyway you can add another 20k words without ruining your story? Perhaps making it more in depth or introducing another line to the story. I was of the understanding that publishers aren't really looking for first novels of that length. I had heard both 60k and 80k as minimums. I, of course don't know if it's true, or if it's just rumor. Perhaps engaging an agent and seeking their professional opinion might be a good idea.
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I was thinking along your lines, mehastings. Thanks.

I think I can add some more back story, and probably add another line, or some deeper back story on a currently minor character. I wanted to have something more "complete" before I go to an agent. A short story in a magazine would help to, no?

I appreciate everyone's input. Very helpful.
 
sirmyk said:
Does this look right?

Up to 100 words = micro fiction
100 - 1000 words = flash fiction
1000 - 7500 words = short story
7500 - 13.5/20,000 words = novellette
13.5/20,000 - 40/50,000 words = novella
40/50,000 - 110/150,000 words = novel
110/150,000 plus = epic novel

I'm not sure if there are definite numbers set in place, because everywhere I look I see numbers similar to these, if not +/- a thousand words / 10,000 words. I have read 60,000 - 100,000 is the recommended length requested by most agencies and publishers for first-time novels. They frown at anything shorter than 60K, or anything longer than 100K.

If you can add in another 20-30K words without stretching out the story too much, I would say go for it and make it into a novel; otherwise, I'd recommend editing the crap out of what you've got to tighten it into one bitchin' novella.
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This looks like a pretty good "thumbnail". Thanks, SirMyk!
 
I don't think any author should be very worried about the number of words the story has as long as it contains the points you were trying to make. If you feel the story is too brief, write more. If all that needs saying is said and done, then so is the story.
 
Jazzman said:
I don't think any author should be very worried about the number of words the story has as long as it contains the points you were trying to make. If you feel the story is too brief, write more. If all that needs saying is said and done, then so is the story.
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This is only true if you wish to never sell your work. When pushing to agents and publishers, there are limitations.
 
sirmyk said:
This is only true if you wish to never sell your work. When pushing to agents and publishers, there are limitations.
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I disagree. If you firmly believe your story is best told at a certain length rather than at any other you should always stand your ground. It's the privilege of the publisher to be your representative of authorship - not the other way around. If they think your piece of work needs to be lengthened in order for it to sell and you disagree then you tell them so and if they don't like it find someone else. Now, if you have signed a contact which states firm limitations like you say that must be met then this obviously changes things, but otherwise my opinion stands.
 
Jazzman said:
I disagree. If you firmly believe your story is best told at a certain length rather than at any other you should always stand your ground. It's the privilege of the publisher to be your representative of authorship - not the other way around. If they think your piece of work needs to be lengthened in order for it to sell and you disagree then you tell them so and if they don't like it find someone else. Now, if you have signed a contact which states firm limitations like you say that must be met then this obviously changes things, but otherwise my opinion stands.
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On what mythological planet does this work?

Publishers have a bazillion authors standing in line dying to be published. I don't exactly have a line of publishers at my door begging me to sell them my work.

So, if a publisher is actually interested enough in your work to be discussing word count with you, and you don't like what they say, you are going to tell them to pack sand? :confused:

IMH-BA-O, it won't matter if you agree with them or not. If they say you need 20k more words, and the next thing out of your mouth is anything other than "okay", they will have only one word for you:

"NEXT!"


If I am way off, here, someone let me know. I would love to be able to take such a cavalier stand with a publisher!
 
leckert said:
On what mythological planet does this work?

Publishers have a bazillion authors standing in line dying to be published. I don't exactly have a line of publishers at my door begging me to sell them my work.

So, if a publisher is actually interested enough in your work to be discussing word count with you, and you don't like what they say, you are going to tell them to pack sand? :confused:

IMH-BA-O, it won't matter if you agree with them or not. If they say you need 20k more words, and the next thing out of your mouth is anything other than "okay", they will have only one word for you:

"NEXT!"


If I am way off, here, someone let me know. I would love to be able to take such a cavalier stand with a publisher!
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And you're probably justified and supported by 70% of the authors out there in not doing so but then again many will say that this is why you'll never be a mainstream author.

I'm not saying to be arrogant and totally dismiss anything your publisher advises and at the same time I'm not saying to show yourself to be a desperate sycophant who will do just about anything to get a check. You stand by your beliefs and thoughts. If strong self-confidence in your own work is a daunting or uncomfortable attribute to your publisher, then you should probably find another one.

At present, many people have this weird idea that any good literary work must be lengthy. Publishers are the first to push this idea too in many cases because they think people only buy long novels in order to get their money's worth. To use a modern example, why is it that J.K. Rowling's novels had each gotten longer and longer as her popularity increased? The answer is obviously because people want to read more and more about Harry Potter but is anyone asking that if the latest novels were half the length, would the story and impact on people be twice as good? It's an interesting thought....

Anyway, I respect the fact that you have a different opinion on the matter. The publishing game is without a doubt a shrewd business and I hope you find the answer to your problem more within your own self rather than from someone else. I'm just trying to show an other side to the coin, as it were.
 
Jazzman said:
Anyway, I respect the fact that you have a different opinion on the matter. The publishing game is without a doubt a shrewd business and I hope you find the answer to your problem more within your own self rather than from someone else. I'm just trying to show an other side to the coin, as it were.
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The problem with this logic is that this isn't a coin, it is a map. Reading the "other side" of a map will certainly get you lost!

To SirMyk's point, your standards and "integrity", that you apparently define by the length of your stories, are great. I say "bravo" and "Tell it like it 'tis". I also say that you can stand rigidly by a word count if you do not care to be published.

The FACTS are that publishers have requirements. Meet them or go away. period. This is not an opinion. This is a FACT.

Hopefully, you have found a legitimate publisher who will publish your work "as written" and not hesitate to cut you a check for a 30k word novel. I hope to find such a relationship some day. Until then, I will choose to play my game on the board of reality.
 
Unless you are Stephen King, J.K. Rowling, or any other multi-million-book-selling fool, you do not have the option of telling your publisher/agent/editor (if you are lucky enough to even obtain one these days) to "bite my big fat one" and "accept my story no matter the length". After Mr. King became well-known and incredibly successful, publishers would print his grocery list if that's what he gave them... because he's freakin' Stephen King! Regarding novels progressively growing longer as a series goes on... Personally, I thought Rowling's HP V was about 200 pages too long, and HP IV and VI about 100 pages too long apiece. Likewise, King is well known for his 600-1000+ page epic novels... which most would argue should have been cut in half by a decent editor. Bravo, Jazzman, for being able to tell your agent/editor/publisher (if you are lucky to have one) to "stick it" when it comes to length. Try convincing any in the publishing world to take on a new author trying to push a 200,000 word or a 15,000 word novel...

I'm just trying to show an other side to the coin, as it were.
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I'm not sure that's a coin you're trying to show us. It may be an expired piece of gum wrapped in pocket lint.
 
Jazzman said:
...this is why you'll never be a mainstream author.
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And, BTW, [expletive deleted], on what authority do you have it that I will never be a mainstream author? Please to be citing your sources.
 
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