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Child Abuse

RitalinKid

New Member
The following is a link to an article about two people who tortured their children. As far as I'm concerned, we can't have stiff enough penalties for these people. Can someone please explain to me why we don't just kill these people? They tortured CHILDREN! Children are the most vulnerable people on the planet. I can't see how putting child abusers in prison is justice. I'm open minded though. If you have a different idea on the situation, please post. These kind of reports just really make me angry. There are no tell tell signs of child abusers or paedophiles. Look at their pictures. Chances are you see people like these two everyday. It's just frustrating to hear.

http://us.cnn.com/2005/US/02/03/family.torture/index.html
 
RitalinKid said:
Can someone please explain to me why we don't just kill these people?

Ever heard of human rights?

And before you reply with what about the kids' rights? bear in mind that prior to the murder the law isn't involved and it's only when the perpetrator is captured and is detained that the legal concept of human rights applies.
 
That's just horrible! You may be right about the human rights thing, Stewart, but they still ought to be shot for that!
 
What would be a worse punishment for you? Immediate death. Or the rest of your life in prison. Think about it. The only way you leave prison is in a body bag regardless of how long you live. I think that might be worse punishment than immediate death. I do understand the short term feeling of "justice done" in the death penalty, but I also think rotting to death for decades upon decades is pretty justifiable also.
 
"an eye for an eye leaves us all blind" - someone I can't remember.
Although I think abusing children is the worst thing you can do, I don't really believe in killing people as a punishment. The only real punishment I see is to make them see that what they have done is truely horrible and make them live with their guilt for the rest of the lives. Only problem is how do you make them see it?
 
I once read some real interesting stuff on rehabilitation vs. punishment. In typical dipshit fashion I can’t remember where I read it. Very interesting stuff. But I think it was more geared towards theft, burglary, drugs, and non-violent crimes. Once you get into serious abuse of any human, and especially kids I don’t know that there’s much hope for them finding any remorse other than felling sorry that they got caught.

Most child abusers were abused themselves from what I’ve read. You would think they would understand the pain they’ve caused more than anyone. Why would they inflict what they know to be so damaging?

Let ‘em rot, put them to work (hard labor), or use them in medical experiments. That’s cruel, but at least they might serve an overall purpose in life if they help find a cure for some horrible disease. Killing them is a very short term, emotional solution.
 
I think instead of doing animal testing on animals we should do it on the bad people in prison such as terrorists, child abductors, child abusers, killers, rapists. Why hurt innocent animals when you can teach guilty people a lesson?
 
hay82 said:
"an eye for an eye leaves us all blind" - someone I can't remember.
Although I think abusing children is the worst thing you can do, I don't really believe in killing people as a punishment. The only real punishment I see is to make them see that what they have done is truely horrible and make them live with their guilt for the rest of the lives. Only problem is how do you make them see it?
I agree. IMO, child abuse is worse than slamming planes into buildings. Hay, my roommate has the same idea as you about making them realize what they have done, but, as you said, how? I don't think you can do that. I would never ever want to bring back torture as a punishment, but if anyone ever deserved it, these people do. I will state again for the record: I do NOT condone torture for ANY reason.

As far as human rights go, how does the idea of human rights play into capital punishment? I mean, aren't we given the rules of our society? If you steal, you will go to jail. If you kill people, you forfeit your right to be a member of our society. I'm all for rehabilitation programs; I don't see how just locking someone up would really solve anything except getting them off the street. However, when someone does something like killing another human or worse (like torturing or raping children), doesn't he forfeit his right as a member of society to be alive? This is not a rhetorical question; someone please explain how human rights should be applied here.

On the issue of using inmates for medical research, I think that's going a bit too far, RainbowGurl. The ethics of using chimpazees (with which we share over 98% of our DNA) is a hotly debated topic, and we should let that sleeping dog lie for this thread. I apparently need to know more about human rights first, so I'll have to pass up a discussion on the ethics of medical testing on animals. ;)
 
RitalinKid said:
aren't we given the rules of our society? If you steal, you will go to jail.

Correction: if you steal, are caught, and convicted based on the findings of a group of your peers then you will go to jail. ;)
 
I've always felt that people should be made to have licenses to have children. You have to take lessons in order to get driving licenses, which are to ensure that your driving doesn't endanger the lives of others and yourself. So why not children?
 
Scratchy said:
I've always felt that people should be made to have licenses to have children. You have to take lessons in order to get driving licenses, which are to ensure that your driving doesn't endanger the lives of others and yourself. So why not children?

i agree, however how in the world would such a system be monitored. most parents have no clue their teens are having sex, and are shocked when little susie comes home preggers, and many of us parents became parents using birthcontrol. ;)
i have 2 kids and i feel sick to my stomach when i hear these stories of what people will do to their children.
 
Scratchy said:
I've always felt that people should be made to have licenses to have children. You have to take lessons in order to get driving licenses, which are to ensure that your driving doesn't endanger the lives of others and yourself. So why not children?

Wow, that's the most Fascist thing I've read on this site.

And what paragon of morality and clean living would control this basic human right? And I guess this is supposed to prevent child abuse, even though it is a hidden crime perpetrated by seemingly normal people behind closed doors.

What are the qualifications for reproduction? How about alcoholics, smokers, obese people, depressed people, unemployed, bad drivers, guys who don't want to change diapers, handicapped, people bad at math, slothful idiots, bowling fanatics, compulsive shoppers . . .?

And I guess you would sterilize anyone who failed the licensing procedure?
 
novella said:
Wow, that's the most Fascist thing I've read on this site.
And I guess you would sterilize anyone who failed the licensing procedure?


isn't this the theme to brave new world?
 
I don't see how licensing would solve child abuse. Child abusers look like people you see everyday and probably score normal on most psychological evaluations. Would we have some NEW government agency to come around and inspect licensed households after they have kids to make sure they meet some government standard? I think not. Governments can't really keep up with foster children as they should.

My roommate tried to convince me that these people didn't deserve death because it would make us just a bad for killing them, but I don't see how punishing someone by death for committing a crime worse than murder could be considered worse than torturing your own children. I'm being to think that people's stance on capital punishment is strictly opinion. It's my opinion that child abuse is worse than murder because of the fact that the children have to live with it the rest of their lives, and that's why I think they deserve to be put to death. His opinion was that they did not deserve death because they had not killed anyone. I was actually raised to believe that lying is just as wrong as murder. In other words, everything is wrong or right with no in between and no varying degrees, but I've begun to believe that nothing is black and white. Everything is just a different shade of gray with some more white and some more black.
 
Knew I was going to get bombarded for the comment, but thought: what the hell, let's see the fireworks display.
novella said:
Wow, that's the most Fascist thing I've read on this site.
Wow, on this entire site? That makes me grin from ear to ear... but not like Mr and Mrs Dollar though, coz that would be wrong.

And what paragon of morality and clean living would control this basic human right? And I guess this is supposed to prevent child abuse, even though it is a hidden crime perpetrated by seemingly normal people behind closed doors.

What are the qualifications for reproduction? How about alcoholics, smokers, obese people, depressed people, unemployed, bad drivers, guys who don't want to change diapers, handicapped, people bad at math, slothful idiots, bowling fanatics, compulsive shoppers . . .?

And I guess you would sterilize anyone who failed the licensing procedure?
You miss my point entirely. The whole idea behind making parents get licenses is NOT to qualify who can or cannot have children. The idea behind getting a license to have kids is primarily a precautionary one: to ensure that parents at least have access to the basic information on what it takes to raise a child (i.e.: contrary to popular though, babies do not bounce back up when you throw them on the floor). Which is why I drew the analogy of car licenses. To get a license, one has to attend classes (think of it more of a diploma / cert than license) and to maintain one's license, one has to attend classes at each stage of the child's life.

Despite the article, I went off on a slight tangent. I wrote that statement because I started thinking about all the child abuse that occurs simply because people don't know any better (i.e.: that's how I was brought up, and that's how I'll bring my children up. There is nothing wrong with slapping your child until they stop crying or moving); not acts of perversity. So, having a license system in place basically means that parents can be taught to break the cycle. Does this mean that all parents who attend classes will break the cycle? No. But it does have the potential of opening their eyes to the "errors of their ways / comprehension".

This is an idea that I have been toying with philosophically, so there are other aspects to this "system" that are not being relayed here; nor will I relay them here. If given the chance, would I actually enforce such a system? No. But I enjoying thinking of it as a possible option mainly because it is food for thought.

And I will bite the bait, novella: there are situations where I believe that the "we" should come before the "I", and that us humans have a tendency to hide behind the word "Rights" when it is convenient. So if that is what makes a fascist to you, then I bow and say: "Fascist at your service."
 
Yeah, let's save the semantics of "fascism" for another thread. I'll be there with you guys though.

Okay, Scratchy, what you want to do is educate people. I go for that because you can only stamp out ignorance with education and experience, but as far as a license, certificate, chip in the arm or whatever else you might want it to be, I don't know. Maybe this is something that could be taught in school (home ec). I don't see the need for a state or federal licensing progam. What are you going to do when someone without a license gets pregnant?
 
ohhh, ohhh, ohhhh....sex ed in school...

how old, what grade, how much detail?????....

I feel another thread coming on...must fight....the impulse to ...start ...new thread.... fighting......
 
Scratchy said:
And I will bite the bait, novella: there are situations where I believe that the "we" should come before the "I", and that us humans have a tendency to hide behind the word "Rights" when it is convenient. So if that is what makes a fascist to you, then I bow and say: "Fascist at your service."

That wasn't bait. That was an honest comment.

To me, rights aren't something you hide behind. They're something you have to get out and fight for every day. You don't protect human rights by hiding.

I agree that there are many many instances when the collective good should supercede individual rights. Controlling who may have children is not one of those instances.

I didn't "miss [your] point entirely." You did not make your point sufficiently.

If you're advocating education about parenting, that's definitely something I agree with. It's also something that is done every day with kids in school via the endless stream of pedantic "literature" about abused kids that is commonly read in English class these days. ((I have a 14 year old reading through this syllabus right now.) There is much discussion of the problems this causes for society and the tendency to pass on bad behavior in families.

When you are pregnant and then have a child, your ob and pediatrician also provide a stream of advice on parenting and typically talk through a lot of issues, like nutrition, discipline, and physical care. The population who chooses not to visit doctors is unlikely to attend an education program.

The problem is, by the time a person is of child-rearing age, they have been immersed and acculturated in their own upbringing to the extent that a little instruction on why shaking babies can kill them is going to be pretty ineffective.
 
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