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December 2013: Jeff Lindsay: Darkly Dreaming Dexter

Meadow337

Former Moderator
The book is Darkly Dreaming Dexter - so lets get reading.

As per Sparhawk's suggestion we can discuss while reading.

Let's make this a good one guys and haul out all our forensic analytic skills and dissect the story, assassinate characters, amass the evidence and present our arguments in the court of opinion
 
Now a hundred and twenty pages into the book I have decided that I don't know who is more scary...Dexter or the Bad Guy. At the moment I think the Bad Guy is from the mysterious past. But that might change as I get further in the book.
 
I think that is a question best not asked...Although I think he saw one to many bad guys go free and lost a few of his marbles :)
 
At Chapter 3 here. Still not over my cringing reaction to Chapter 1. But what an unusual idea for a story to appeal to the general public -- and it is popular! Go figure!
There had better be a lot of redeeming in the pages to come.
 
I suppose it appeals to the side of us that thinks in terms of an eye for an eye. The author is, as I suspected, really twisting morality. Does the murder of murderous paedophiliac priest justify the actions of a serial killer?

It is, for most, an easy thing to say the priest deserved what came to him. He is, a deliberately unsympathetic victim. And it casts the serial killer in the role of heroic avenging angel, which he is not.
 
I suppose it appeals to the side of us that thinks in terms of an eye for an eye. The author is, as I suspected, really twisting morality. Does the murder of murderous paedophiliac priest justify the actions of a serial killer?.
No, not in my book. And certainly not in aiding and abetting vigilantism by a serial killer.

It is, for most, an easy thing to say the priest deserved what came to him. He is, a deliberately unsympathetic victim. And it casts the serial killer in the role of heroic avenging angel, which he is not.

The priest deserved what happened to him and would have gotten his just desserts at the hands of the law if our serial killer had provided the information to them.

You can tell I am an idealist dreamer. :D I just don't find sympathy for any of them, yet. I certainly don't empathize.

But I will read on.
 
I have a feeling that the author was trying to pose the question of does one give in to the dark side of your personality or choose the right thing but does it in a extreme way with Dexter saying "I can choose who or what I kill". It's not "I can choose not to kill" but then I guess that was not what the author wanted for the character.
 
No, not in my book. And certainly not in aiding and abetting vigilantism by a serial killer.



The priest deserved what happened to him and would have gotten his just desserts at the hands of the law if our serial killer had provided the information to them.

You can tell I am an idealist dreamer. :D I just don't find sympathy for any of them, yet. I certainly don't empathize.

But I will read on.


Aah but Peder, you and I are in the vast minority!
 
yes LOL but when it comes to reading a book like this written for mass consumption one has to take into account how most people think about these things. I know any number of people who would not only be cheering Dexter on, but offering to help.
 
For me, I think it is a matter of thought versus feeling.
The thinking part of me can hardly mourn for the death of the priest, whether or not in accordance with the legal system. He got what he deserved, and that's fair enough and easily the end of the matter. No extra thought wasted there.
But having Dexter getting a good feeling from the act of killing a person -- not especially from killing an evil person -- just chills me.
And now the matter of the annoying dog is further in the wrong direction for this animal lover.
Exulting in killing, however justified (even capital punishment), is making this an unappealing book for me. But I certainly understand that opinions will differ.
 
ok let me clarify -

my PERSONAL stance on the subject is that nothing on this green earth justifies killing, not even when it's state sanctioned. There is more than sufficient evidence that murder as a deterrent for crime does not work, and remove that very dubious justification (even if it did work) you are left with killing for revenge in the name of the law. (Yes I feel strongly about this and no I don't mince my words). In addition the extremely negative psychological effects on those elected by the state to murder for them are also well documented (and yes the executioners do not justify it to themselves for long - they suffer incredible levels of depression, guilt and remorse.)

On any level I have never subscribed to the type of discipline that metes out as punishment the very thing you are trying to prevent some one from doing - at the very most basic level its like hitting Little Johnny because he hit Little Jimmy - 'Don't hit' SLAP ... VERY logical? - not! And if the law is not simply codified vengeance and it doesn't work to deter / prevent a crime then its ineffective and needs to change. Actually the statistics show that violent crime goes up in places where there is the death penalty. In some strange way the fact that the state kills makes it ok for every one else to up their levels of violence. And why not? If the leadership fails to respect the sanctity of life why should any one else?

However, coming from a country that has very high levels of crime and high levels of reprehensible crime (rapes, child rapes, molestation, etc) and where the death penalty was done away with fairly recently the subject of suitable punishment for certain crimes comes up fairly often. The general feeling, when people are outraged over a crime, is that for some crimes a quick death is too good for certain criminals - castration, slow roasting, torture all come up as good alternatives. Mostly the conversation goes 'if it was my child, wife, mother, sister, cousin nothing would stop me from .... insert slow death of choice'. It is a personalised highly charged emotional response to a horrible crime. So from that perspective the author was very clever setting up the first murder we see Dexter committing as being a murdering paedophile. On an emotive level most people would cheer Dexter on and ignore the clear wrongness of him, his thinking and his actions.

He is deliberately using a situation that, in most people, elicits a strong personal vengeful response to make an unsympathetic and unlikeable character both sympathetic and likeable (in a way).
 
ok let me clarify -

my PERSONAL stance on the subject is that nothing on this green earth justifies killing, not even when it's state sanctioned. There is more than sufficient evidence that murder as a deterrent for crime does not work, and remove that very dubious justification (even if it did work) you are left with killing for revenge in the name of the law. (Yes I feel strongly about this and no I don't mince my words). In addition the extremely negative psychological effects on those elected by the state to murder for them are also well documented (and yes the executioners do not justify it to themselves for long - they suffer incredible levels of depression, guilt and remorse.)

On any level I have never subscribed to the type of discipline that metes out as punishment the very thing you are trying to prevent some one from doing - at the very most basic level its like hitting Little Johnny because he hit Little Jimmy - 'Don't hit' SLAP ... VERY logical? - not! And if the law is not simply codified vengeance and it doesn't work to deter / prevent a crime then its ineffective and needs to change. Actually the statistics show that violent crime goes up in places where there is the death penalty. In some strange way the fact that the state kills makes it ok for every one else to up their levels of violence. And why not? If the leadership fails to respect the sanctity of life why should any one else?

However, coming from a country that has very high levels of crime and high levels of reprehensible crime (rapes, child rapes, molestation, etc) and where the death penalty was done away with fairly recently the subject of suitable punishment for certain crimes comes up fairly often. The general feeling, when people are outraged over a crime, is that for some crimes a quick death is too good for certain criminals - castration, slow roasting, torture all come up as good alternatives. Mostly the conversation goes 'if it was my child, wife, mother, sister, cousin nothing would stop me from .... insert slow death of choice'. It is a personalised highly charged emotional response to a horrible crime. So from that perspective the author was very clever setting up the first murder we see Dexter committing as being a murdering paedophile. On an emotive level most people would cheer Dexter on and ignore the clear wrongness of him, his thinking and his actions.

He is deliberately using a situation that, in most people, elicits a strong personal vengeful response to make an unsympathetic and unlikeable character both sympathetic and likeable (in a way).

I don't particularly disagree with anything you've said, though I might phrase things differently or with different emphasis. I don't see a big issue between us. And I think your analysis in your final sentence is an astute observation.

One thought I would add, however, is that the role of the justice system is not only to punish the criminal (in my opinion) but equally and also to protect the accused from the victims of his crime (who would gladly tear him limb from limb, or whatever other sadistic urge is understandable among the victims). The state-sanctioned punishment is a consensus punishment then, rather than a revenge-punishment, and presumably it is what the consensus deems appropriate for the crime. Which is hard to argue with in a democratic society, it seems to me, even if it does seem illogical. It does at least prevent further crime on the public by the incarcerated, even if it doesn't prevent crime by those not yet caught. So I go with the majority.
 
To which my answer is ... that is all very well when some one else has to do the actual killing for you. My proposal is as follows - if state sanctioned killing is the 'will of the people' then it must also be the responsibility of the people. Let the job of executioner be by random selection of all eligible adult citizens (like jury duty). You may not know what crime the person you are putting to death committed - you must trust the judicial process got the right guy, prosecuted him correctly and fairly, and this is the ONLY alternative for a completely unrehabilitatable criminal - and you have to go to the prison, on your appointed day and kill him.

Still sound like a morally justifiable idea?

It is easy to call for or agree with the death penalty when you view it from an emotional perspective, however remove the emotional response and add in some personal responsibility for the act - it (hopefully) becomes a completely different question.

Is it still OK to kill on behalf of the State when it isn't an emotional response to a personal affront or in the throws of moral outrage. Easy to think 'I would kill if ...' but hopefully much less easy when its in cold blood and you are responsible for the death of a person you have to trust the State was 100% right to want to kill.
 
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To which my answer is ... that is all very well when some one else has to do the actual killing for you. My proposal is as follows - if state sanctioned killing is the 'will of the people' then it must also be the responsibility of the people. Let the job of executioner be by random selection of all eligible adult citizens (like jury duty). You may not know what crime the person you are putting to death committed - you must trust the judicial process got the right guy, prosecuted him correctly and fairly, and this is the ONLY alternative for a completely unrehabilitatable criminal - and you have to go to the prison, on your appointed day and kill him.

Still sound like a morally justifiable idea?

Sorry, but the consensus solution says I don't have to do that.
And who said morally justifiable? I just said consensus. (Just giving you a hard time, Meadow. Morality is a whole 'nother topic in my mind. Like: whose morality?)
 
Sorry it really sounded like you were saying the death penalty was the majority choice in your neck of the woods :)

and whose morality? Mine LOL because I have to live with my conscience.
 
Sorry it really sounded like you were saying the death penalty was the majority choice in your neck of the woods .
I can't speak for all states. But the death penalty (where it is in force) is mandated by the state legislature, which we the people elect. So "consensus.":)

and whose morality? Mine LOL because I have to live with my conscience.
In that case be a conscientious objector, as allowed here for military service, and accept whatever the lesser penalty is for that. Much as many people do when non-peaceably demonstrating for many other causes. In which case, if enough people object we'll be back to the situation where a few who are willing do the deed, and the rest of us sit back and opine. :)
 
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