East-West Dialogue: Rex & Sitaram

[Sitaram]

This morning, Sitaram and Rex had a long discussion which started with the Milton Paradise Lost Thread.

http://thebookforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2714

Rex has given permission for me to edit and post our discussion here.

++++++++++++++++++++++

Sitaram:

Rex, you are immersing yourself in the study of Milton and Cromwell, and many other writings which are outside of Chinese cultural heritage and tradition. Do you perceive within yourself something which you see as uniquely Chinese culture/thinking/feeling which is then somehow changed when you digest all this western literature/history/philosophy? I mean, are you different in any way now that you study such things, than if you had never pursued such studies? I am asking if you sense or perceive a change within yourself, of any kind, as a result of deep exposure to these topics/studies

Rex_Yuan:
I sense no change within myself.

Sitaram:
I was raised with no religion. College exposed me to the "100 great books" (Plato, Aristotle, Kant, Hegel, etc) and that changed me very much.
Then, I became Greek/Russian orthodox christian in my 20's, and spent time in monasteries, and that again changed me. In my forties, I studied Zen and Hinduism and many other religions, and that changed me.


Rex_Yuan:
My thought or my way of thinking, is typically Chinese. And I don't think I will change in the future. The Chinese culture is such one that can enclose anything, accept anything "good." that is basically beneficial to the human kind in general.


Sitaram:
That is a curious statement. If I read into it, or read it differently, it seems to be saying that you are resistant to the possibility of change (just my guess... conjecture), no offence intended; just being my usual analytical self.

Rex_Yuan:
No resisting, just because by comparison between the western culture and the Chinese traditional one.

Sitaram:
You see, I have learned or recognized that I may change drastically during my lifetime. So, I accept this possibility. In my 20's I was convinced that ancient Indian and Chinese writings were nonsense, and now I am of an entirely different opinion. I have come, in my lifetime, to see much that is contemptible about my country and culture, and my ancestors

Rex_Yuan:
The more I read, the more I respect my own culture. Sitaram, do you find something different from the western culture and that from China in the development from the most ancient time up to now?

Sitaram:
I have seen statements made with regard to Japanese/Chinese culture/art, which are striking, in contrast to Western culture/art.

For example D.T. Suzuki contrasts a poem by Tennyson with an haiku by Basho in a most astounding manner. Suzuki demonstrates that Tennyson's poem "I plucked a flower from the crannied wall" is paradigmatic of destructive western analytical thinking. The Western thinker knows what it WAS (after destroying it in the analytical process). The flower wilts in Tennyson’s hand is wilting as he philosophizes about it. Whereas Basho simply observes the blue flower, the Nazuna, by a wall, and leaves it undisturbed. Basho does not dissect and destroy, but rather merges subjectively with his surroundings. And here is another observation regarding European paintings, where the person, the face, takes up most of the canvas, and nature is in the distance, very small. By contrast, Japanese paintings have people as very small, in the background, and the bulk of the canvas is the mountains, nature.


Sitaram: Say... listen... I am serious... this discussion we are having is very good... give me your permission to edit it and post it at the forum. Other readers may become interested and join in.

Rex_Yuan:
Ok . Yes, you have my permission to post our dialogue.

Sitaram:
One major thing we can offer on the Internet, is a dialogue between cultures.... seriously! You are a most respected representative of China, doing advanced studies in English, in literature.... and you live near the nation's capitol. This shall give a wonderful opportunity to post regarding D.T. Suzuki's analysis of Tennyson vs. Basho; West vs East


Rex_Yuan:
I would do anything beneficial to the human kind.

Sitaram:
Yes, in another of our conversations, some months ago, I remember you expressing your humanitarian desire to help society at large
This desire of yours, to do good, is most commendable. It was Gandhi who said, "We must ourselves become that very change which we desire to see in the world." by sharing this dialogue of ours, we give others the opportunity to join in, and to set them thinking along the same lines, of how we as individuals might help the world at large.

Rex_Yuan:
The real spirit of Chinese traditional culture (not the modern one which is changed greatly by the influence from abroad)is by doing good to everyone else that the giver receives real happiness. I found that the Chinese development of thinking is a history of interpreting what has been said by the ancestor. While in the west, it is one that the offspring overturn their ancestors. This is the fundamental reason why I said to you that I don't think I will change. i.e., Harmony or Conflict, that is the title of my thesis Chinese culture sees everything as a whole, (harmony); The West one sees human kind split from nature, from others (conflict). Descartes said "I think, so I exist." He actually put himself detached (or alienated) from the world around him. Being detached creates conflicting state of existing.
My Chinese screen name in MSN can be translated as "The highest good is like water. The heaven and earth exist long." I took the name from “The Way of the Tao” by Lao Tse or Laotzu. Water benefits all the other creatures (things, matters), but will not compete with them. Heaven and earth foster, or provide materials nourishing not themselves, so they exist long.

Sitaram:
Wu-Wei, action through non-action

Rex_Yuan:
So when I say I don't think I will change, I am serious and the conclusion is derived from fundamental comparison between two cultures and I feel so lucky to be brought up in so great a culture, and now (not too late) to know something concerning its real essence. After my realizing this, I became happier. The more I know about it; the happier I am. I accept the Chinese culture, because I don't want to refuse happiness. tranquility, happiness
that is something Irving Babbitt, the humanist or neo-humanist found.
Emerson said that human kind has ridden on a horse and he sways from one side to the other, but never stay in the middle. Confucianism emphasizes the importance of the "Golden-Mean", which is a term said by Aristotle. But Babbitt thought though the Greeks produced something really great, they didn't make a good balance between diversity and unity. So Socrates was put to death. Then the last hope died.

Sitaram:
Yes the ancient Greeks and Romans spoke much of a mean between extremes

Rex_Yuan:
Hegel announced that romanticism is the ending of art. The philosophy of modern western countries especially in the America, is in a confusion. or too diversified.

Sitaram:
Hegel is very important, and unique... I wrote my senior paper on Hegel, and it is at my website

Rex_Yuan:
"From the extremes the middle always looks like another extreme."

Sitaram:
The synthesis between thesis and antithesis becomes a thesis to repeat the cycle

Rex_Yuan:
Hegel is a genius and very knowledgeable. But he sees things in too simplified a fashion.

 

[StillILearn]

Thank you, Sitaram and Rex, for bringing this fascinating converstion to our attention. I (for one) will be reading with interest.

 

[Sitaram]

I have found a great wealth of information in the search engines regarding Milton and Calvinism and Arminianism and Cromwell.

And I shall be posting shortly in this thread regarding a book I have in front of me by Erich Fromm, D.T. Suzuki, and Richard De martino entitled Zen and Psychoanalysis. It is the opening pages of this book which count Suzuki's analysis of the differences between Basho's Haiku and Tennyson's poem, each regarding a flower.

I have also succeeded in locating, on my shelves, my copy of Nancy Wilson Ross' World of Zen - East/West Anthology

Just yesterday I learned that the actor, Bob Denver, who portrayed Maynard G. Krebbs in the Dobie Gillis Show has passed away. I mention his character, because he portrayed a beatnik in a show created just at the end of the beatnik era and just prior to the beginning of the hippy era. And I mention beatniks because Alan Watts and D.T. Suzuki were possibly the first to write extensively about Zen for the western audience, and such popular writings had many influences in popular writing and culture, e.g. Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Pirsig, which has little to do with Zen per se (and much to do with Platonic dialectic), but much to do with the influence of Zen on our thinking.

 

[namuamituofo]

Do you have any books concerning Cromwell?

 

[Sitaram]

The Master of Silence

I am going to recount here, and ancient Zen story which is related in The World of Zen - an East/West Anthology, edited by Nancy Wilson Ross.

My reason for bringing this story up in detail is that, for me, it illustrates in a wonderful fashion, how the reader may find a meaning which the author never even dreamed of.

A monk called himself the Master of Silence He was actually a fraud and had no genuine understanding. To sell his humbug Zen, he had two eloquent attendant monks to answer questions for him; but he himself never uttered a word, as if to show his inscrutable "Silent Zen". One day, during the absence of his two attendants, a pilgrim monk came to him and asked: "Master, what is the Buddha?" Not knowing what to do or to answer, in his confusion he could only look desperately around in all directions - east and west, here and there - for his missing attendants. The pilgrim monk appearantly satisfied, then asked him: "What is the Dharma?" He could not answer this question either, so he first looked up at the ceiling and then down at the floor, calling for help from heaven and hell. Again the monk asked: "What is the Sangha?" Now, the "Master of Silence" could do nothing but close his eyes. Finally, the monk asked: "What is blessing?" In desperation, the "Master of Silence" helplessly spread his hands to the questioner as a sign of surrender. But the pilgrim monk was very pleased and satisfied with this interview. He left the "Master" and set out again on his journey. On the road, the pilgrim monk happened to meet the very two attendents of the "master of silence" who had been absent, but were now returning. The monk pilgrim began telling them enthusiastically about what an enlightened being this "Master of Silence" was. He said: "I asked him what Buddha is. He immediately turned his face to the east and then to the west, implying that human beings are always looking for Buddha here and there, but actually Buddha is not to be found either in the east or in the west. I then asked him what the Dharma is. In answer to this question he looked up and down, meaning that the truth of Dharma is totality or equalness, there being no discrimination between high and low, while both purity and impurity can be found therein. In answering my question as to what the Sangha was, he simply closed his eyes and said nothing. That was a clue to the famous saying:

If one can close his eyes and sleep soundly in the deep recesses of the cloudy mountains, He is then a great monk.

Finally, in answering my last question, ' What is the blessing?" he stretched out his arms and showed both his hands to me. This implied that he was stretching out his helping hands to guide sentient beings with his blessings. Oh, what an enlightened Zen Master! How profound is his teaching!


When the attendant monks returned, the "Master of Silence" scolded them thus: "Where have you been all this time? A while ago I was embarrassed to death, and almost ruined, by an inquisitive pilgrim!"

+++++

We see in this ancient Zen story and excellent example of eisagesis, where the reader "reads into" the work or act something which the author of the work never imagined.

Often, one word, and one shade of meaning, can make ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD, quite literally, in that it suggests an entire moral/ethical/salvific/theological world which IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT from that causal world suggested by some other, slightly different shade of meaning.

I was once discussing certain fine theological points with someone during a long train ride. Finally I pointed to the doors of the train, which were across from our seats. There was a sign on those doors which said "Do not lean on THESE DOORS." I pointed out that if this train car were discovered by archeologists thousands of years from now, they might very well tranlate that sign and assume that it ment "do not lean on THESE DOORS (because there are OTHER DOORS, elsewhere, upon which you MAY LEAN)". Then such future theologians/archeologists would go on a great quest for the mythical doors upon which LEANING WAS PERMITTED.

 

[Sitaram]

Notice how J.D. Salinger capitalized upon various "eastern" notions such as "reincarnation" and "prayer of the heart" (from the Philokalia), in the short story Teddy about the prodigy child who was a wise man, reincarnated, and in Franny and Zooey where Zooey is so beguiled by the Russian Way of the Pilgrim which instructs about prayer of the heart. And Salinger was writing these things around the 1950s, when Alan Watts was influencing the west with popularized writings about Zen.

I believe that the writings of Alan Watts and Christmas Humphries, in Great Britain, and D.T. Suzuki (Japan), who collaborated with one another, had an impact and influence upon western culture and literature and art.

It is curious that Alan Watts described himself as "a spiritual entertainer."
He was certainly gifted at writing and producing books and lectures which held great appear for the general reading public.

People in the West, perhaps bored, perhaps dissatisfied, turned to the East and extracted or abstracted certain elements which they characterize with some term, like Zen, and produce a caricature of that export. One day, that caricature becomes an episode in the Simpsons, with Bart, taking zen-like lessons from a Chinese restaurateur on the proper ninja gestures for tossing menus under doors. That episode is a take-off or spoof on a movie, The Karate Kid where a young Caucasian boy takes lessons from the wise old Asian man who happened to be a master of martial arts.


So, Rex, I wonder if, in Asia, there are pockets of bored and discontent people who create and then act out, caricatures of Gatsby or William F. Buckley, Jr. or some equally exotic Western personality.

 

[Ell]

I find this topic quite fascinating but feel ill-equipped to contribute in a scholarly way. What I offer is from personal experience ony. I hope I'm not intruding on your discussion.

Sitaram:
Rex, you are immersing yourself in the study of Milton and Cromwell, and many other writings which are outside of Chinese cultural heritage and tradition. Do you perceive within yourself something which you see as uniquely Chinese culture/thinking/feeling which is then somehow changed when you digest all this western literature/history/philosophy? I mean, are you different in any way now that you study such things, than if you had never pursued such studies? I am asking if you sense or perceive a change within yourself, of any kind, as a result of deep exposure to these topics/studies

Rex_Yuan:
I sense no change within myself.

Sitaram:
I was raised with no religion. College exposed me to the "100 great books" (Plato, Aristotle, Kant, Hegel, etc) and that changed me very much.
Then, I became Greek/Russian orthodox christian in my 20's, and spent time in monasteries, and that again changed me. In my forties, I studied Zen and Hinduism and many other religions, and that changed me.

Rex_Yuan:
My thought or my way of thinking, is typically Chinese. And I don't think I will change in the future. The Chinese culture is such one that can enclose anything, accept anything "good." that is basically beneficial to the human kind in general.

Sitaram:
That is a curious statement. If I read into it, or read it differently, it seems to be saying that you are resistant to the possibility of change (just my guess... conjecture), no offence intended; just being my usual analytical self.

Rex_Yuan:
No resisting, just because by comparison between the western culture and the Chinese traditional one.

I think I understand what Rex-Yuan means when he says he senses no change within himself. It is not a matter of resisting change, but of embracing that which you find worthwhile. Or as he put it, "The Chinese culture is one that can enclose anything, accept anything 'good' that is basically beneficial to the human kind". Hence, new or different ideas don't 'change' you in the western sense, they merely become part of your totality.

As I stated earlier, this East-West dialogue is quite fascinating to me because at a young age I was raised by my Confucius-scholar grandfather. Later, I was sent to a Protestant Sunday school, attended both regular public school and Chinese school, and was indoctinated in all things western by an aunt who thought we should all 'blend in' (hah!). At any rate, l never thought I needed to choose one way of thinking over another (change). Sitaram, in the course of my life, I've been exposed to many different ideas as you have, but rather than think I've 'changed', I think of it more like a progression and journey of the same person. Everything blends and becomes the sum total of what I am today.

ell

 

[Gem]

Ell

I find this topic quite fascinating but feel ill-equipped to contribute in a scholarly way. What I offer is from personal experience ony. I hope I'm not intruding on your discussion.

Ell, you stole the words right out of my mouth, though you managed to arrange them in a much more elegant and graceful manner.

I'll be reading this thread with much interest, though I'm not sure how much i can contribute, being so obviously outclassed, intellectually.

I was born in India, but came to England when I was 5, so the whole east/weat dialogue resonates with me. Since there wasn't anyone to show me the way, i 'discovered' reading and learning by myself and began to expose myself to different ideas at a young age. When I realised that these ideas clashed with the thinking of the people around me, i would once again hit the books and bug everyone until they would answer my questions. I cannot say that my thinking is completely western or eastern, its an amalgamation of not just my cultural heritage but also of my life experiences.

At the same time though, Sitaram your point about change is very valid, because the more you experience or immerse yourself in other ideologies/ways of thinking the more you understand people and because you are understanding someone better, your response to them is going to change.

What i do find interesting though, is that the more literature I read, both western and indian, the more parallels and similarities I see.

I hope this post makes even half the sense it did in my head

 

[Sitaram]

Eli: thaks for your post. I was quite impressed with your quote from Pynchon about our ignorance having "a shape and contours". I am anxious to see his book of short stories one day.

Gem: As I read your post, I am thinking of Sarvapali Radhakrishnan. I have a large paperback here filled with essays that people have writted about Radhakrisnans life and works. SR was truly a giant with one leg firmly in the East and the other firmly in the West.

(I shall be adding more to this post presently..)

I am tempted just now to get up and find my book on SR. But, instead, I have been meaning to add to this thread some things in my mind concerning the life and career of Alan Watts. Watts wrote his own autobiography, In My Own Way. After Watts death, Monica Furlong wrote a biography of him entitled Zen Effects. She took her title from a term coined in nuclear physics. She explains in her Preface: In advanced particle physics some remarkable phenomena occur when two particles bearing opposite charges are forced to collide. Some of these events can be explained by standard theory, but others - zen effects - cannot be explained in terms of any known processes.

Watts autobiography, naturally, tells nothing of his last years. Watt's paints a picture of himself that is somewhat flattering, revealing nothing which might diminish our esteem for him.

Zen Effects paints a more accurate picture of a man caught in an economic and social vice, who drank a quart of vodka a day to keep himself going.

Watts started as an ordained Anglican minister married to a wife who had no idea, initially, of Watts secret side.

Watts had experience some bizarre relationships in a private boys school which left him jaded in his appetites. Watts asked his wife to join him in a menage au toi with another man. She could not understand his behavior. She was confused and distressed and sought the counsel of a bishop.

Watts became disillusioned with Christianity, resigned from the ministry, and turned to Buddhism.

I have a paperback copy of one of his early books, where he was still passionately preoccupied with criticizing Christianity and justifying his change to himself and to the world.

By mid-life, Watts was under the pressure of backbreaking alimony payments from several divorces, and his only means of income was to write and lecture. And they only way he could cope with everything was heavy drinking.

There are still some radio station which play his taped lectures once or twice a week.

Alan Watts described himself as "a spiritual entertainer."

A person such as Sarvapali Rhadakrishnan has very different reasons than someone like Alan Watts for keeps a foot in the East and a foot in the West.

We each have our special reasons why we do the things we do. Sometimes they are of our own choosing. For others, there is no choice.

 

[TIMECUBE]

please excuse my ignorance, but what is "zen"?

 

[Sitaram]

What is Zen?

I'm very glad you asked that excellent question, "What is Zen?"

Perhaps long before the 6th. century B.C.E. (Before the Christian Era), which was the century of Siddhartha Gautama, the historical figure known as The Buddha, in India, in the Sanskrit language, the language of the sacred Hindu Vedas, there was a word, dyana used to describe a form of concentration or meditation.

Now, it is from that word dyana that, centuries later, and a continent away, we finally arrive at the word zen. We shall see that the migration of dyana to become zen is a gradual eastward journey, to the Land of the Rising Sun, Japan, by way of China.
That journey started with Bodhidharma who brought dyana to China, where it became known as chan (because they couldnt pronounce dyan and we all know that the Chinese talk funny). Many centuries later, someone brought chan to Japan, where they pronounced it zen (because they couldnt say chan and we all know that Japanese talk funny.)

I cant let you go away without adding some archeology to all this.

In ancient India, there are various representations, carvings and engravings of someone seated with crossed legs, erect posture, folded hands, and closed eyes. Now, who or what do you suppose that figure represents?

I thought I would be very clever, just now, and search on Siva "Lord of the Beasts" archeologists. Google returned only one browser page, which was one of mine, written 8/5/99.

I have been searching just now for a picture to show you regarding that ancient seal discovered, showing a figure in meditation.

http://www.jainsamaj.org/literature/harappa-150104.htm


One may study the engraved seal from Mohenjo-Daro (Cambridge Hist. of India, 1953, Pl. XXIII) of the third millennium B.C. Rudra (Pasupati) Mahadeva seated in meditation in the midst of mortals such as men, animals such as rhinoceros, buffalo, tiger, elephant, antelopes, birds and fish and exhibiting the peniserectum (Urdhva-etas) pose standing for the upward force of creative activity. The iconography of the God noticed in the Mohenjo-Daro seal is fully explained by the following Riks from the Rig Veda:-

1. "Brahma among gods, leader of the poets, Rishi of sages, buffalo among animals, hawk among birds, axe among weapons, over the sieve goes Soma singing."

2. "The thrice-bent bull goes on roaring-The Great God has completely entered the mortals."

3. "Rudra is the lord of creatures."



Folks, it took me a while, but here is a photo of that ancient seal:

http://faculty.cva.edu/Stout/IndianCambodian/MohenjoDaroSeal2.jpg


According to Ninian Smart, Professor of Comparative World Religions, it is a toss-up between Jain and Saivite worship as to which is the more ancient continuously practiced religion.

Now, Mahavira, the 24th Jain Tirthankara was a contemporary of Siddhartha Gautama, the historical Buddha (around 600 B.C.E.). I believe that Zarathustra dates also to around 600 B.C.E in Persia.

By around 3500 B.C.E. in the Harrapan civilization, archeologists find brick platforms which it is assumed were used for Yajna fire sacrifice. And the discovery of the famous "Siva-Pasupati" (Lord of the Beasts) Seal indicates Saivism as well as the practice of Yogic.

At any rate, we see a lotus position meditative figure in artistic depictions of Siva, Mahavaira, and Buddha.

It is very interesting to note that, in the Old Testament, in the Book of Genesis, there is an account of how Patriarch Abraham sacrificed several different animals, split them in half, arranged their halves in a row (with a path through the middle), and then sat all day in a meditative state. When he was in what sounds like a trance, then God appeared as a fire which passed along the path between the animal halfs, through the middle of the sacrifice.

We may see the actual description of Abraham's meditative trance and vision
in Genesis 15:7-21 (King James Version)


7And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

8And he said, LORD God, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?

9And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.

10And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.

11And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.

12And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.

....

17And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.



We scholarly types love discover grand designs, symmetries and formulas which span millenia and continents and draw everything together into one, to organize it and keep it neat, and render it suitable for multiple choice testing.
And if we cannot discover such patterns, then we create them and impose them on the data, when everyone is looking the other way.


(I shall be adding to this much of Sunday morning, I hope, as I drink my many coffees. And I file ever 10 minutes. So keep your cursor near that refresh button, and, like Ole' Gabby Hayes used to say, "Keep those cards and letters comin' in!")

We may return somewhat to our thread topic, East vs. West by noting a number of things. First, in the Vedas, the words siva and rudra originally mean simple gentle and harsh. Later, Shiva and Rudra become personified as deities.

You may read about Siva and Rudra here:

http://www.mythfolklore.net/india/encyclopedia/rudra.htm

where Rudra is 'A howler or roarer; terrible.'

Now, it would be most convenient if we could show that our word CIVIlized is derived from siva (gentle) while our word rude comes from rudra (terrible).

At sometime around the 3rd millenium B.C.E., in India, a nomadic, aggressive, warlike people, light in complexion, began to migrate further and further south into India, to finally meet and merge with the very gentle and meditative, darker complexioned, people of the south. The warlike people admired Rudra, the howler. The gentle, thoughtful people admired Siva, lord of beasts. What took place was a cultural and religious synthesis, as well as some frolicksome intermarriage.

Several years ago, I watched a PBS educational television interview with
Richard Poe, author of Black Spark, White Fire: Did African Explorers Civilize Ancient Europe?

Richard Poe cites Aristotle's observation that the Greeks are an ideal mean or middle road between the fierce barbarians of the North (the Germanic tribes), and the gentle civilized people of the South (Africa). Aristotle felt that the Greeks combined the best qualities of both extremes of rudra and siva.

We easily see the rudra-siva polarity between Tennyson's destructive poetic analysis of a flower side by side with Basho's gentle haiku of the nazuna:

‘Flower in the crannied wall’
By Alfred, Lord Tennyson (1809–1892)


FLOWER in the crannied wall,
I pluck you out of the crannies;—
Hold you here, root and all, in my hand,
Little flower—but if I could understand
What you are, root and all, and all in all,
I should know what God and man is.


Notice the violence, the agression. We can almost see the tower of Babel rising, as human nature seeks to reach the very heavens of understanding.



http://www.brightdawn.org/dailydharma/SpiritualRetreatInstructions.htm


“All around us are many wonderful, beautiful things. Basho, the most famous of all Japanese poets, wrote many poems which were expressions of his life. He saw universal life—the pure life—deeply within himself and in all things around him. One of his well-known poems is:


Yoku mire ba
Nazuna hana saku
Kaki ne kana


Look carefully
The nazuna blooms
Along the fence—Ah!

“The nazuna is a most insignificant, small flower. Unless one looks very carefully, one will not see it. Unless one understands life deeply, what significance can the nazuna have? Wild flowers bloom everywhere. What of them? Perhaps Basho had walked along that fence many times and had been totally unaware of that small, white flower until he saw it that particular morning. It was blooming with every petal, every leaf. How beautiful! When the sun comes, the nazuna opens up one-hundred percent. How about me? Am I living like the nazuna? I have so many complaints—no inspiration. But look at this small, insignificant wild flower. No one looks at it; no one praises it. However, it lives fully. Basho was inspired to live like the nazuna and crystallized his understanding into a 17-syllable haiku poem. Basho received a great lesson from the nazuna and this expanded his awareness.

 

[nighthawk]

A very interesting discussion Sitaram and I have noted all the books you refer
to but so many, where does one start? Do you think 'The World of Zen - an East/West Anthology, edited by Nancy Wilson Ross' might be little heavy going for a beginner?

 

[Sitaram]

The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

But you already know this.

The first Friday night lecture I ever heard at St. John's, in the Fall of my Freshman year, 1967, was given by Eva Brann, and entitled The Student's Problem. It might have been subtitled Poverty Amid Riches.

I still have a printed copy here. Allow me to quote something from it:


There is a sickness, traditionally called melancholy, which is particularly at home in communities of learning such as ours. Its visible form can be seen in the engraving by Duerer called Melencolia Prima.

http://medieval.mrugala.net/Enluminures/Albrecht Durer/Melencolie.jpg

Amidst the signs and symbols of liberal arts, especially geometry, sits heavily a winged woman. Her eyes are fixed intently on visions of nothing - she is a figure of "careless desolation" surrounded by unvalued riches. Almost all the older members of this - and any - community of learning, be they teachers or students, are well acquainted with her. So will you be, who are fresh to our enterprise, the later the more devastatingly.

...

Robert Buron, in his Anatomy of Melancholy makes reference to "a melancholy that is the character of mortality", i.e. the knowledge, implied in every feeling that has any urgency about it, that the time of our life is finite. Melancholy... is the sometimes paralyzing and sometimes frenzying dread of "missing out," which comes to those who have had tantalizing intimations of earthly happiness. It is stronger the more remote death is, and so, strongest in the young, for in them every day demands the renunciation of a hundred possible futures for the choice of one actual life.

...

Consequently the opposite of melancholy is riches in poverty, a serene ardour of the sort perfectly described in a Buddhist song of which the tranlation is as follows:

Well-roofed and pleasant is my little hut,
And screened from winds; - Rain at they will, thou god!
My heart is well composed, my heart is free,
And ardent is my mood. Now rain, god! Rain!



What I am saying, in quoting Eva Brann, is that we are surrounded by such a wealth of things, that we must choose something, we must start somewhere. But if we are so overwhelmed by that wealth that we make no choice, start nowhere, take no first step, then ours is a poverty in the midst of riches.

We must make some choice, and then begin, and do our best. Try to make progress. Perhaps we shall succeed. Perhaps we shall fail. But we must embark upon our journey.

 

[Sergo]

Too bad I hadn't read all of this thread, but I hope I will some day.
But I have several comments right now, and I would like to post them now.

I think I need to confess that I've never read Milton. Really, I've never read anything serious on psychology, or culture. All my education has been strictly technical - so in no way I could be considered a person able of a serious opinion on cultural or psychological aspects.

After that stated I would like to point that I am sure that the only thing drastically wrong is antagonising of one culture against another, one type of psychology against another, and commenting to that effect that one culture/psychology is destructive, and another is essentially good and never failing. I am sure that there are/were/will be people in both Western and Eastern cultures who misunderstand nature of their native culture and misuse it. That doesn't necessary mean that one culture is essentially wrong, and another - essentially right.

Thank you for attention, please forgive my unprofessional approach.

 

[Sitaram]

Destructive is not necessarily a negative criticism.

The Hindu concept of god is a trinity of creation-preservation-destruction.


Some societies are war-like and see their colonial aggression in a positive light. Other societies lean more towards the extreme of pacifism and non-violence.

In the grand scheme of things, well lets take our own physical body and its cellular biology. We see creation, preservation and destruction at work on a daily basis. Our blood contains white cells which attack and devour things on a continuosly. We see dead skin shed in the form of dandruff or scabs. A fertilized egg cell is totipotent in the sense that it has the potential to differentiate into any conceivable cell, muscle, nerve, skeletal, etc. A muscle or nerve (nerve cells can reach a lenth of several feet, an that is one cell) are so specialized that they can never again undergo division and reproduction. Their mode is a mode of preservation.

Socrates, in Plato's dialogues, speaks several times of misology, which means, basically, a hatred for discussion and dialogue. Socrates goes on to say that misology is always a symptom of misanthropy, which means a dislike of other people.

The discussion about east and west has been going on for many decades now, among people such as D.T. Suzuki, Erich Fromm, Alan Watts, and many many others.

It is said that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

Rabbi Kook was the first ashkanazie chief Rabbi ever to be appointed for Jerusalem. He spoke of a dialogue which extends over centuries. He points to the 3rd chapter of Malachi (which is the last book of the Old Testament) where it says, "Those who fear God converse with one another. God listens, and it is written in a book."

Rabbi Kook raises the question, "Who are these people who converse with one another." Kook points out that we who are living may raise a question, and then seek for the answer in the writings of those long dead.

St. John's and the "Great Books Program" may be seen as an ongoing dialogue of "the dead poets" variety.

I think the most important thing, perhaps, is to find reasons to keep talking, keep reading, keep learning, keep growing, and not to look for reasons to be fearful and fall silent.

Suppose all those little cells in our body could converse with one another, in a dialogue, in their microcosm world. Suppose one of them were to say, "We are not merely individuals. We are part of a greater being which we cannot perceive. The reproductive cells must not boast of their productivity and denigrate the phagocytes. The creation-preservation-destruction which we see in our midst is not to be judged as good or evil, right or wrong, better or worse, but is a harmony which is consecrated to a grander goal than any of us as individuals can perceive."

What might all the other cells say or do in response to the speech of this one philosopher cell. Would they vote to ostracize their philosopher cell, like Aristeides the Just? Would they give the philosopher cell poison hemlock to drink? Would they crucify the philosopher cell?

We are all dimly aware that, somehow, there are palpable differences between the North and the South, the East and the West, and variious nationalities.

Consider the following joke:

Heaven is where the police are British, the cooks are French, the mechanics are German, the lovers are Italian and it's all organized by the Swiss.

Hell is where the police are German, the cooks are English, the mechanics are French, the lovers are Swiss, and it's all organized by the Italians.

Now, why is it that we laugh at that joke? I will tell you why I think that we laugh. We laugh because we have preconceived stereotypical notions of the German character, the French character, the Italian character and the Swiss character.

Of course, no generalization is worth a damn (including this one.)


Most will agree that war is bad. Patton even said that "war is hell". And yet, our aviation and rocket technology would not be what it is today without the impetus of two world wars to drive research.

When we acknowledge the environmental problems which threaten the very future of life on earth, we are confessing the destructive and agressive aspects of the industrial revolution and colonization.

Consider this one excerpt from Thomas Pynchon's "Gravity's Rainbow".
I see this passage as one of the strongest most controversial critcisms of European colonial aggression that I have ever read. Does anyone else see in this passage a rhetoric which censures destruction and aggression? And yet, Pynchon buries it in the midst of what some might deem "a dirty book." If it were in some different context, lets say, the front page of the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal, I dare say it would raise more than a few eyebrows.

This is a literary forum, and I am currently reading Pynchon, according to my profile, so it cannot be too out of place to interject this passage.

http://thebookforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7594


A generation earlier, the declining number of live Herero births was a topic of medical interest throughout southern Africa. The whites looked on as anxiously as they would have at an outbreak of rinderpest among the cattle. How provoking, to watch one's subject population dwindling away like this, year after year. What's a colony without its dusky natives? Where's the fun if they're all going to die off? Just a big hunk of desert, no more maids, no field-hands, no laborers for the construction of the mining -- wait, wait a minute there, yes, it's Karl Marx, that sly old racist skipping away with his teeth together and his eyebrows up trying to make believe it's nothing but Cheap Labor and Overseas Markets....

Oh, no. Colonies are much, much more. Colonies are the outhouses of the European soul, where a fellow can let his pants down and relax, enjoy the smell of his own waste. Where he can fall on his slender prey roaring as loud as he feels like, and guzzle her blood with open joy. Eh? Where he can just wallow and rut and let himself go in a softness, a receptive darkness of limbs, of hair as woolly as the hair on his own forbidden groin. Where the poppy, and cannabis and coca grow full and green, and not to the colors and style of death, as do ergot and agaric, the blight and fungus native to Europe. Christian Europe was always death, Karl, death and repression. Out and down in the colonies, life can be indulged, life and sensuality in all its forms, with no harm done to the Metropolis, nothing to soil those cathedrals, white marble statues, noble thoughts . . . . No word ever gets back. The silences down here are vast enought to absorb all behavior, no matter how dirty, how animal it gets . . . . "

- Page 317

 

[Sergo]

Dear Sitaram: you are a wise man.
Yep, generalization is generally wrong - I am there with you.
Yep, to speak with one another, to read, to confer - not to be afraid, not to hate, not to look down - is great.

By the way: there are lots of Western works of art, where there are lots of nature, and sometimes absolutely no presence of man. We, Russians, have several painters, who painted almost exclusively lanscapes or sea - for example, our marinist Ivazovsky. And, you would not believe me, - but the only original Japanese picture I have shows people in boats - many people and almost nothing else...

By the way, I am not sure Eastern culture is really all that unchanging: if that has been the case, the world would have been much different now.

And one of the well known cases when the young of a country showed their contempt for their old - has been during the so called "Cultural Revolution" in China. I cannot remember anything of the same quality in the contemporary Western society.

So. I am sure it is great to discuss everything. And it is great to know opinions of others. But to say that there is nothing in other cultures that could influence one's views - is not too wise. It is an opinion of a young person who has yet very much to learn in life.
At least IMHO it is so.

 

[Sitaram]

Sergo wrote:

After that stated I would like to point that I am sure that the only thing drastically wrong is antagonizing of one culture against another, one type of psychology against another, and commenting to that effect that one culture/psychology is destructive, and another is essentially good and never failing.


Sergo, it is you who jump to the conclusion that destructive is tantamount to undesirable.


I am not quite certain that I ever made the above statement. True, I speak of the destructive form of analysis of Tennyson's poem, and the non-destructive nature of Basho's haiku. But you seem to be putting words in my mouth. Perhaps it is my own fault. I shall have to carefully re-read my posts during the coming days and consider whether I have said something misleading.


Sergo, you begin your initial post by admitting that you have not read the entire thread, and you hint that you may never read the entire thread. You also mention that you have not read in the areas to which I make reference. Perhaps you will only happen to read a portion of the thread where I am taking one side of an argument, or playing the devils advocate.

Sergo, I do not want you to feel that I am totally ignoring what you post, yet.

If you want to read just a little, and then make a snap judgment, well, how can we really discuss anything properly, assuming that is your agenda or desire?

Sergo, lets give you the benefit of the doubt. Let's say that I am really full of baloney and have everything wrong, and am politically incorrect to boot. Now, it shall be kudos to you for opening every ones eyes to my shortcomings. But, your job will be only half done. For you must then undertake to write your own thread which addresses all these issues in the proper manner, in a positive fashion, so that all may benefit from reading and seeing things in the proper, clear perspective. A critic's job is easy, when they do not read too much, or write too much, but sit on the sidelines and say "this is wrong" and "that is wrong."


If we never read anything and never write anything, then we shall never violate any copyright, nor shall we ever make any error in spelling or grammar, or hurt anyone's feelings. But we shall never accomplish or learn anything either, or make any sort of progress. Closing our eyes and shutting our mouths, as Zen like as it might seem, is not the answer.


To me, for example, it is patently obvious that the native American Indian way of life, for thousands of years, is in many ways far superior to modern life, for the simple reason that

a.) there was much less adverse environmental impact in the native American lifestyle

and

b.) those individuals who survived were hardy and robust without any reliance upon antibiotics or artificial insemination, or the host of other things that we are dependent on.

True, the individual suffered greatly from disease or injury, but the group as a whole remained physically strong in a way we shall never know. On the other hand, our societies are geared to the rights and comforts of the individual, but as a species, we are gradually becoming weaker and more dependent upon artificial things.


European colonization changed all that, and was able to change it through superior technology and military force.

But, does that mean that I am advocating the destruction of culture as we now know it, and a return to that aboriginal life of food gatherers and hunters? No, of course not. I am correct in observing those aspects of aboriginal life which were superior to our high-tech culture. But that world is gone.

For that matter, rain forests are gone for good, once they disappear. I am told that once cannot simply recreate a rain forest once it has been destroyed.

At any rate, there is no harm in our discussing all these matters, and exercising our minds and our imaginations, and perhaps seeing something different, some new author to read.

Personally, I think that Aristotle is a rotten fellow, insulting the barbarians and the Africans like that, saying the Greeks embody the best of both worlds, with none of the drawbacks. Perhaps we should never mention Aristotle or read his books. That would serve him right!


Often, people mistake argument for discourse. Perhaps one might even say that they mistake discourse for dialectic.

There is a form of Socratic inquiry which is like a game, like chess, for example.

I tried to write once about this, in a post entitled "Playing the Game"

http://thebookforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7494

In addition to the problems inherent in this Socratic "game", there is another problem which is illustrated by "Isaac Newton's Homework"

http://thebookforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7970

To continue with our metaphor of dialectic as "a game" with "rules", some of you may care to take a look at this thread, in which I describe the advantages of playing "goodminton" over playing the traditional game of "badminton."

http://thebookforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7493&highlight=goodminton


Suppose our discussions of literature and authors are like a game. Let's pretend they are like the game of badminton. How far might we take this analogy, and how might such an understanding help us in this current discussion of the novels of Milan Kundera which is in progress, or any discussion for that matter?

The various topics are the birdies, and we swat them back and forth to (or at) each other across a net which is our theme perhaps.

When I was ten years old, our neighbors set up a badminton net in their back yard. I watched them playing the game in the traditional fashion. I decided that there must be a much better way to play the game. I invented my own game of badminton, a sort of negative badmintion. The object of my game was to keep the birdie in the air as long as possible. The first person to cause the birdie to fall to the ground was the loser. One might only be a real winner as long as the game continued in progress, and the birdie continued in flight. Now, should we christine our game of negative badminton as goodminton?

When you are playing traditional badminton, or tennis, or some other such competitive game, you are playing against your opponent. You attempt to win by beating or defeating your opponent. When you are playing goodminton, then the other player is not your opponent, but rather your partner. Your true opponent becomes yourself, lest you make the wrong moves and cause the flight of the birdie to cease.


When such discussions as these become contests of one-upsmanship, then, essentially, nobody wins, everyone is the looser.

Contests between forum members are quite easy in such forums as these. We may compete in them even as we sleep. All anyone need ever do is click on a member's profile and compare all the original posts to the total number of posts. In another literary forum that I visit, one person has over 4,000 posts. But when you enter them into this contest, and click on their profile, they have only 100 original posts, and 50 of those are to wish someone Happy Birthday. If you then proceed to read each and every post of theirs, you encounter a multitude of dancing bananas and smiley faces, but very little that is quotable or publishable. Occasionally, I take the time to read all the posts of one member, to see what they are really all about.

I sometimes think of the posting history as a kind of "handwriting on the wall."
And shall we be weighed and found wanting?

Its just like Herodotus said. The real test comes after our death. Did we write or say or do anything worthy of remembering?

 

[Peder]

To me, for example, it is patently obvious that the native American Indian way of life, for thousands of years, is in many ways far superior to modern life, for the simple reason that

a.) there was no adverse environmental impact in the native American lifestyle
and

b.) those individuals who survived were hardy and robust without any reliance upon antibiotics or artificial insemination, or the host of other things that we are dependent on.

Sitaram,
Just a tangential nit-pick with respect to your comment, put in bold by me. I think Jared Diamond's Collapse offers the opposite contention, that even American Indian civilizations have indeed collapsed and disappeared entirely because of their impact on their environment. That is off-topic with respect to this thread but I thought worth remarking in the interest of accuracy. Now back to regular programming.
Peder

 

[StillILearn]

"In another moment down went Alice after it, never once considering how in the world she was to get out again."

StillIlearn followed some links (down the metaphysical rabbit hole) and she has returned with this:

"...that old story about the student who rushes to his Zen master, filled with enthusiastic questions, meanings, relationships -- only to be whacked on the head with a stick."

 

[Sitaram]

StillILearn quotes from this page:

http://www.themodernword.com/pynchon/pynchon_grintro.html


In closing, I would like to reaffirm my belief in the open text -- I am not suggesting that my interpretations are somehow definitive, comprehensive, or even correct. Pynchon's work is so large, so encompassing, that to claim I know all his intentions, themes, and meanings is quite foolhardy. I am sure that I have neglected some things that a few of you find very important, just as I hope that I brought to light some interpretations that might be worth considering. My favorite metaphor for reading Gravity's Rainbow is that old story about the student who rushes to his Zen master, filled with enthusiastic questions, meanings, relationships -- only to be whacked on the head with a stick. Gravity's Rainbow is that cheerfully disruptive Zen stick. In spite of this whacking, however, if I had to select one "message" learned from the book to stand as the most important, I would probably let Roger Mexico and Jessica Swanlake speak for me:

"They are in Love. Fu** the War."



Sitaram adds:

We might think of Alyosha's words, in Brothers Karamazov, that the object is not to understand life, but to love it.


So, what is it to be? Shall we go to war, picking all the nits, or shall we fall in love with the fun of all the different ideas, merging and separating in kalaidoscopic fashion?


Its all up to you. Its just like that Disney song that Jimmny Cricket singsm,

You could be swinging on a star, carry moonbeams home in a jar. Or would you rather be an ***?