Haruki Murakami

[mgarratty]

I adore Norwegian Wood (those that know me are no doubt sick of me going on about how great it is) .

I don't know you so I have no complaints about you going on about it - and anyway I would agree with you. One of the best books I've read in a while.

I read it last week while I was on holiday skiiing - I had a day in the apartment (as there was a blizzard outside) and got through it in a day in the cosy warmth with the wind and snow outside, a read I'll remember for a while.

Mark

 

[mgarratty]

I looked it up, it's 'South of the border, West of the sun'.

I've not read that one yet but is on my list and was recommended to me by a friend.

 

[Rustam]

I've not come across 'Listen Song of the Wind' - maybe it has a different title here in the UK

I read it in russian, so translated it as it was titled in rusian.

 

[jay]

...and just started Dance Dance Dance.

(If I'm not too late) put it down and read _A Wild Sheep Chase_ first.
Not essential, but (I would have to imagine) conducive to a better-flowing storyline, as it’s a sequel (of sorts).

 

[novella]

perception of surrealism

I saw this interesting quote:


Murakami talked to the LA Times about Kafka on the Shore, his short story about a tsunami, and why it doesn't matter if you don't understand his books.

"In Europe and America they say I am surreal and unrealistic and postmodern and I'm happy to hear it," Murakami laughs. "But in Korea or China or Taiwan nobody says these things. They just enjoy the stories."

I wonder if that's because of something in the translation? Or do you think it's a basic cultural difference?

 

[jay]

"In Europe and America they say I am surreal and unrealistic and postmodern and I'm happy to hear it," Murakami laughs. "But in Korea or China or Taiwan nobody says these things. They just enjoy the stories."
-I wonder if that's because of something in the translation? Or do you think it's a basic cultural difference?

I think this is *clearly* a difference in culture.

Take, for example, last month’s Chinese New Year festivities.
Animals, colours, grandiose parades, symbology, mythology, superstition, food, etc - all these things play a very large part of the celebrations and meaning.
Compare this to the traditional Western New Year: get drunk and watch a ball drop from the sky.

Most certainly in the US people simply do not know how to comprehend mythology or symbology. That died out with the mass-extinction of the Native people there.
Religion took over.
What are some of the only symbols floating around? A cross, blood/wine, a fish (as a consumable, not as an animal).
What *is* (and always will be) basic mythology _has_ to be taken for Divine Truth for it to be palatable.

That, and the art of the metaphor has been lost.
Horrible writers like Stephen King and John Grisham, who can barely turn a readable sentence let alone an artistic one, dominate the field.
And when it is used, it’s often mislabeled as “proverbial” (again, the religious aspect brought in).
Yet another gawd-awful typist, Dan Brown, when he writes a tale of fiction bifurcated from established myth; many are convinced this is Yet More Truth.
They demand that it is real.

The only times the masses seem to be able to handle some kind of mythology or fantasy are when the line is clearly established (not that they are not for religion, but therein lay mankind’s downfall), say the Tolkien books or Harry Potter. “Oh, ok, this is a wizard, so “magic” is allowed.” Their safety zone is not breached.
Either that or truly most people’s reading ability is that of a 10-year old.

Another thing is that the Western way of doing things is by labeling. As in books, which are simply a marketing device, publishers will say, “how can we sell this?”
Many people want to know more than, “it’s a great book”, and question (something like), “well, what’s it like?”

Yes, the irony of people complaining or commenting that they don’t “understand” Murakami’s books is decisively rich, this from a sound-bite society that *clearly* doesn’t [truly] “understand” most of what of going on around them.

j

 

[novella]

I think this is *clearly* a difference in culture.

symbology, mythology, superstition, food, etc - all these things play a very large part . . . .


That, and the art of the metaphor has been lost.

I'm intrigued by these observations, as a similar impression has occurred to me in my current reading of Memoirs of a Geisha.

Reviews of this book were mainly along the lines of "how miraculous that a Western man (Arthur Golden) has so accurately and sensitively portrayed the intimate life of a geisha." To my inner ear, it's rather clumsy, primarily because he drops metaphors in like stones of imagery rather than having the true Japanese style of writing inside the metaphor.

For instance, the protagonist might say "blah blah this is what happened. I was like water washing over a rock. blah blah." Clumsy.

Banana Yoshimoto would write inside such a metaphor, much the way a haiku is ideally completely metaphorical.

Re your other point about Western religion and symbolism, I would add that Freud had an enormous impact on how Americans and Europeans represent and interpret the world in ways that go beyond the Judeo-Christian influences.

This accounts for the prevalence of confessional literature, heavy-handed sexual symbolism, and why everything seemed to taste like chicken in the 20th century.

Where Freud appeared, for decades, to be the antidote to Judeo-Christian repression, *religious* adherence to his and related ideas merely compounded the problem, trapping adherents between their traditional constrained mysticism and the illusion that confession, particularly of an emotional-sexual nature, would set them free. IMO, psychoanalysis in the wrong hands can be a self-binding mechanism.

There are many Christian cultures that retain pre-Christian pagan rituals, symbols, and culture: in Ireland, Spain, South America, Italy . . . lots of times these rites are done up in a Catholic disguise (Italian feast days where relics are carted about festooned with rich decoration), but they still retain their cultural power beyond the church.

 

[jay]

"how miraculous that a Western man (Arthur Golden) has so accurately and sensitively portrayed the intimate life of a geisha."

Hm. Yes, and such “reviews” were probably scribed by some that have *no* idea what a Geisha is…but let’s not get into “miracles”…

For instance, the protagonist might say "blah blah this is what happened. I was like water washing over a rock. blah blah." Clumsy.

I saved myself the grief of reading it.

Banana Yoshimoto would write inside such a metaphor, much the way a haiku is ideally completely metaphorical.

Nicely put.

Re your other point about Western religion and symbolism, I would add that Freud had an enormous impact on how Americans and Europeans represent and interpret the world in ways that go beyond the Judeo-Christian influences.

Hmmmm, maybe. Certainly in some circles.
But I was basing my post on the General Reading Public, of whom I have a slightly higher respect for that just the General Public.
But even still, I’m pretty sure the BRP’s sole ‘understanding’ of Freud would be the word “penis” and misusing “Freudian slip”.

This accounts for the prevalence of confessional literature, heavy-handed sexual symbolism, and why everything seemed to taste like chicken in the 20th century.

Sure. And an eventual restriction of censors. Undoubtedly a Henry Miller paved the way for a Charles Bukowski, etc.
As for the mediocre flavour, well…it’s a Harry Potter world…
(I’ll pause momentarily for the sane to go and vomit)

IMO, psychoanalysis in the wrong hands can be a self-binding mechanism.

Absolutely.

There are many Christian cultures that retain pre-Christian pagan rituals, symbols, and culture: in Ireland, Spain, South America, Italy . . . lots of times these rites are done up in a Catholic disguise (Italian feast days where relics are carted about festooned with rich decoration), but they still retain their cultural power beyond the church.

True, but you’re naming non-US areas and minority groupings, which is different than what I was aiming for.
I wasn’t trying to slam religion for religion’s sake (that’s too easy), but trying to place it (and others things) moreso in the context of your original question.

Cheers,
j

 

[novella]

I saved myself the grief of reading it.


True, but you’re naming non-US areas and minority groupings, which is different than what I was aiming for.
I wasn’t trying to slam religion for religion’s sake (that’s too easy), but trying to place it (and others things) moreso in the context of your original question.

Cheers,
j

Don't get me wrong. Memoirs of a Geisha is a good book; it's just not especially true to the Japanese idiom.

Also, I'm not talking about non-US areas. I was raised a Catholic in NYC, and believe me, the Italian feasts and Irish cultural paganism are alive and well. I myself participated in the crowning of a human virgin every spring, in church, with a maypole, etc.

By the same token, I think Freud has influenced every form of self-expression in America, from film to TV to pop music to novels to the way a kid in school describes their family relationships. It's far from a rarefied influence on only intellectuals.

Part of the reason sexuality and physicality is so overused now as a public means of communicating is that people are still trying to play Freud's trump card--shock--even though it's completely worn out. In cultures that have not been swallowed by the psycho-sexual paradigm, opacity, metaphor, and mystique are more powerful than blatant revelation.


I know you're not just slamming religion. I agree with you in the main part, and am just adding to that. Also, it sounds like you have little first-hand experience of the US. It's an extremely robust and tolerant culture, one that is always in great flux.

For one, American Indians are aggressively getting some of their own back in the 21st century: wait for it. For another, the Hispanic and Asian populations are increasingly influential in politics and culture, something that might not be obvious from a distant perspective.

For example, fully one third of the school children in Nebraska's suburban and city areas speak fluent Spanish and are learning English only as a second language. You might expect that in LA, but it's happening all over the country.

 

[jay]

Also, it sounds like you have little first-hand experience of the US. It's an extremely robust and tolerant culture, one that is always in great flux.

Yes, 31 years of it.
While your description does fit, although any description would fit for a place _that_ big, I do think “uninformed” leapfrogs all of those you listed.
And I don’t deny Freud’s *great* contribution to culture (although I would hesitate to say “science”), but I verrry sincerely doubt anyone that doesn’t “get” Murakmi’s work would accredit their lack of “understanding” to Freud.
That’s all I was getting at; I wasn’t trying to just take shots at the US. Or religion.

For one, American Indians are aggressively getting some of their own back in the 21st century: wait for it.

Please don’t tell me you mean opening casino’s is *any* kind of redemption for what they lost!

For example, fully one third of the school children in Nebraska's suburban and city areas speak fluent Spanish and are learning English only as a second language. You might expect that in LA, but it's happening all over the country.

While I highly encourage learning other languages, what you see being done is more of a mandatory action than a love of other cultures.
My last place of employment in Boston started re-doing all signage within the institution to bi-lingual. No, Italian, no Japanese, no French or Greek. Only Spanish.
I inserted my bank card into a machine once and it defaulted to Spanish, not even asking me first.
The US has a ****serious**** problem with borders, welfare, immigration and education -placating to the “Latinos” is not, in my opinion, anything to be seen as a positive thing.

But gawdamn, we’ve come off topic a bit…
Although much of this _does_ preface The End of the World, but, sadly, more a Softboiled one.
j

 

[novella]

Yes, 31 years of it.
While your description does fit, although any description would fit for a place _that_ big, I do think “uninformed” leapfrogs all of those you listed.
And I don’t deny Freud’s *great* contribution to culture (although I would hesitate to say “science”), but I verrry sincerely doubt anyone that doesn’t “get” Murakmi’s work would accredit their lack of “understanding” to Freud.
That’s all I was getting at; I wasn’t trying to just take shots at the US. Or religion.



Please don’t tell me you mean opening casino’s is *any* kind of redemption for what they lost!



While I highly encourage learning other languages, what you see being done is more of a mandatory action than a love of other cultures.
My last place of employment in Boston started re-doing all signage within the institution to bi-lingual. No, Italian, no Japanese, no French or Greek. Only Spanish.
I inserted my bank card into a machine once and it defaulted to Spanish, not even asking me first.
The US has a ****serious**** problem with borders, welfare, immigration and education -placating to the “Latinos” is not, in my opinion, anything to be seen as a positive thing.

But gawdamn, we’ve come off topic a bit…
Although much of this _does_ preface The End of the World, but, sadly, more a Softboiled one.
j

Wow, jay, I think you are misreading almost everything I've written. It seems that you are taking an unnecessarily defensive position.

For one, if you read my comments on Freud, they are far from laudatory. My point is not that his contribution is "great"--that is arguable--but that it is ubiquitous. Also, I don't know why you are positioning my comments as somehow in opposition to any understanding of Murakami. One does not preclude or qualify the other. I was merely addending to your comments about religion as a symbolic template.

Comments on the Indians (term they prefer) refer to land rights claims being upheld in many courts right now, taxation positions, and the unification of tribes as a lobbying group. (My bro works with tribes across the US.)

What you say about second-languages in the US is not borne out by my experience. In my neighborhood in NYC, the ATMs spoke Russian as a second language, Korean as a third. It depends on the area.

I don't think teaching kids in a language they understand is "placating." Neither does the US Supreme Court.

I sense that you don't understand how or why the US upholds individual rights.

As for the idea that US citizens are "uninformed," in my experience most of the world is "uninformed" to the same degree. Sit down in a cafe in rural France, a trattoria in Rome, a Chinese grocer, a beach in Tahiti, and ask the local sitting next to you about world affairs, what their views of foreigners are, and what the international community should do about immigration, and I'm sure you'll get a picture of the typical human--not that concerned with the big world,as long as they get a paycheck and a little creature comfort. It's politically correct around the world to lay such generalities on Americans, but are the people on the streeet in Pakistan, the Congo, China, or Wales any more concerned about other parts of the world? I think not.

 

[jay]

Wow, jay, I think you are misreading almost everything I've written. It seems that you are taking an unnecessarily defensive position.

Maybe so, although I am not being defensive in the least (my lack of caring in the area certainly wouldn’t place me on the offensive either).

My point is not that his contribution is "great"--that is arguable--but that it is ubiquitous.

I wasn’t quoting you. As the saying goes, ‘emphasis mine’. (hence the stars and not quotes)

Also, I don't know why you are positioning my comments as somehow in opposition to any understanding of Murakami. One does not preclude or qualify the other. I was merely addending to your comments about religion as a symbolic template.

I understand. I was just trying to bring it back on topic…you were adding to my comments which were originally and solely made in the Murakami theme.

Comments on the Indians (term they prefer) refer to land rights claims being upheld in many courts right now, taxation positions, and the unification of tribes as a lobbying group. (My bro works with tribes across the US.)

Cool (although I’ve never heard they now prefer that given-to-them name).
I still say: the damage is done though.

I don't think teaching kids in a language they understand is "placating." Neither does the US Supreme Court.

Some of my comments are also peppered with the broader idea, which is why I made such comments about borders and such. Like, say, this absurd ‘briefly legal status’ for illegals because Americans actually have bizarre notion that they are ‘too good’ for certain jobs. But that was also merely a ‘get the Latino’ vote ploy…

Schools are for teaching; they can teach the children how to learn the language of the country they reside in. Otherwise, pretty much placating. Or pandering, if you prefer.

And I’ll totally not get into any implication that the Supreme Court _doesn’t_ placate…

I sense that you don't understand how or why the US upholds individual rights.

Ah, yes. Land of “Democracy”. Etc.

As for the idea that US citizens are "uninformed," in my experience most of the world is "uninformed" to the same degree.

We all have a different POV, I’ll stick with mine which is very much solid and very much based on doing some of the very things you mention in those very locations.

I can’t recall any other country that teaches outright fictions and calls them “history”, and we can go right back to the “Indians” theme for this. Betsy Ross anyone?

It's politically correct around the world to lay such generalities on Americans, but are the people on the streeet in Pakistan, the Congo, China, or Wales any more concerned about other parts of the world? I think not.

Should they be?
But when I say “misinformed” (or whatever I said) I am not solely talking about World Views. Although one _could_ argue that your president clearly thinks he was elected President of the World, and not of them thar 50 vaguely “united” States – so yes, a bit more world knowledge than the average Welshman (hereby opening any Welsh jokes) would be prudent.
Politically correct? Maybe. I try to avoid trends. I’ll settle with “spot on”, though.

But as with everything, it’s not “all Americans”…or ALL anything.
I have little desire to point a finger and accuse xxxxxx [insert the US’s drastic overpopulation number here] just as I would have to imagine someone as bright as yourself really has little inkling to defend xxxxxx.

Off into the cold,
j

 

[Maya]

I've just suggested Norwegian Wood by Haruki Murakami for Aprils vote.

I've heard of "Norwegian Wood". I was just wondering, why did he title it "Norwegian Wood"? Do you think you can answer that without giving away much of the story, since I might read it.
I don't understand why Norwegian wood would play such an important role in a book.

 

[jay]

I've heard of "Norwegian Wood". I was just wondering, why did he title it "Norwegian Wood"? Do you think you can answer that without giving away much of the story, since I might read it.
I don't understand why Norwegian wood would play such an important role in a book.

Quite simply, it's taken from the song by the Beatles with that title.
And while it plays a part of the story, this is not giving anything away as, if memory serves, it's mentioned within the first handful of pages.

HM uses tons of music and music(al) references within his work.

I encourage you to read it. Change your "might" to "will".

Best,
j

 

[starchild42]

And while it plays a part of the story, this is not giving anything away as, if memory serves, it's mentioned within the first handful of pages.

The very first page, in fact (she says, being horribly pedantic...)

I encourage you to read it. Change your "might" to "will".

Absolutely.

Maya, I'd encourage you to read this too, at your earliest opportunity. And don't judge it on the first chapter, which I'd hope you wouldn't do anyway, but this is something I always say when recommending this book to people.

 

[jay]

And don't judge it on the first chapter, which I'd hope you wouldn't do anyway, but this is something I always say when recommending this book to people.

While maybe you shouldn’t answer this question, or at least maybe highlight it with a ‘spoiler’ warning, as we don’t want to reveal anything to Maya, but why do you add that comment to your recommendations?
While again I’m just relying on my memory, I don’t recall the first chapter being off-putting in the least. A pretty good opening which clearly establishes that we will soon submerge in a flashback…
And after completing the novel I went back to reread that chapter…

Unless you’re saying not to be put-off by the usage of (ack) Beatles (yuck) songs. *That* I could understand…
j

 

[starchild42]

While maybe you shouldn’t answer this question, or at least maybe highlight it with a ‘spoiler’ warning, as we don’t want to reveal anything to Maya, but why do you add that comment to your recommendations?
While again I’m just relying on my memory, I don’t recall the first chapter being off-putting in the least.
j

No, it's not off-putting, not in the least, and no spoilers necessary, nothing given away.

It's an ordinary first chapter. Nothing wrong with it. The rest of the book, however, is *extra*-ordinary, and I just like to get this across to people.

Apparently, some folks (not me, I like to give something a little more time, [with the notable exception of TDVC, the opening of which just made me laugh hysterically and put me off reading the rest]), need their books to immediately grab them with the first chapter, since a few people I've recommended NW to have read the first chapter and didn't consider it anything particularly special, and not continued with the rest.

And this, I think, is a damned shame. The way I see it, NW is a bit of a slow-burn. The deeper you go, the more special and extra-ordinary it gets. And I would hate to see anyone miss out on this amazingly good thing because the first chapter didn't "grab" them. And that's why I say this when I recommend it. I should probably step back and not say this to people, but I'm a hopeless optimist, and I'd love to see everyone that reads this book be as captivated by it as I was.

But, that's just me.

I'm totally with you on the (ack) Beatles ref, though

 

[Maya]

Hey jay and starchild,
thank you for answering my question.

Quite simply, it's taken from the song by the Beatles with that title.

Oh, the last time I listened to the Beatles was in 10th grade in "music-class".
Maybe I should listen to the song before reading the book.

And don't judge it on the first chapter

I won't!

It's on my MUST-read list now.

 

[starchild42]

It's on my MUST-read list now.

Glad to hear it

Let us know what you think when you're done with it...

 

[Maya]

Of course, I will.