Hello from Russia!

[Sergo]

Really, I think there is a lot of joy to be found in SF books. And there is Fantasy, Gothic Fantasy etc... Of course not every book is good, but maybe one in a hundred should be a marvel...

How would I have lived without Herbert Wells?

Or Poe?

I've read most of King's books... I liked most of them...


I liked Irwin Shaw - his "Beggarman, Thief" was the first "big" English book I have read...

I am reading "Stamboul Train" by Graham Greene now. I like him too - I think that his works convey the essence of the English Soul, as I understand it.
How do you think?

 

[Kenny Shovel]

So... I hope I explained my thoughts on Latvija...

Sure, although I would say that racial tension also exists in London and the situation of tolerance you saw there has been arrived at over many years in which much prejudice has had to be overcome.
Is seems to me that the situation with, some of, the former Eastern bloc countries is that a feeling that their national identity had been, at least partly, suppressed has led to an overstatement of Nationalism when Independence was achieved. Some of that may come in the form of hostility towards your Country and countrymen. Unfortunately that is just something that has to be worked through until the ‘wounds are healed’. The same process of time healing wounds has had to be undergone by Germany, and by the former European Colonial nations, in fact it is still probably an ongoing process.
You may be right that Russia is treated differently than other Countries at times by the west but then we have another factor to throw in. For forty-five years the west was told that you could not be trusted and wanted to destroy us, in the same way you would have been given the reverse impression; of course we can now see that we were all lied too but perhaps that distrust still lingers in the back of the mind?

By the way, Tarkovsky made his film "Stalker" upon "Roadside Picnic" idea... The film and the story differed too much to my liking again...

The reason I read ‘Roadside Picnic’ was that I had seen ‘Stalker’, another slow paced Tarkovsky film I like…

I am reading "Stamboul Train" by Graham Greene now. I like him too - I think that his works convey the essence of the English Soul, as I understand it.
How do you think?

Greene is in a rather unique situation in that his reputation seems to have declined since his death, the opposite normally being the case. Personally I don’t understand why as I think he is head-and-shoulders the best English language writer of the 20th Century.
In case you don’t know Greene himself used to categorise some of his books as “Entertainments”, Stamboul Train was one, “Our man in Havana” another, although I find the “entertainments” and the more serious books equally enjoyable. Of the 15 or so books of his I have I’d say that “The Quiet American” was my favourite.
I’m not sure about him capturing the “English Soul” as we don’t really have this concept in the same way you would of the “Russian Soul”.
BTW, “Russian Soul” is a concept I still don’t understand, the more I talk to Russian’s the more I’m sure that they don’t either!

 

[Sergo]

Sure, although I would say that racial tension also exists in London and the situation of tolerance you saw there has been arrived at over many years in which much prejudice has had to be overcome.
Is seems to me that the situation with, some of, the former Eastern bloc countries is that a feeling that their national identity had been, at least partly, suppressed has led to an overstatement of Nationalism when Independence was achieved. Some of that may come in the form of hostility towards your Country and countrymen. Unfortunately that is just something that has to be worked through until the ‘wounds are healed’. The same process of time healing wounds has had to be undergone by Germany, and by the former European Colonial nations, in fact it is still probably an ongoing process.
You may be right that Russia is treated differently than other Countries at times by the west but then we have another factor to throw in. For forty-five years the west was told that you could not be trusted and wanted to destroy us, in the same way you would have been given the reverse impression; of course we can now see that we were all lied too but perhaps that distrust still lingers in the back of the mind?


= You are quite right, I think. =


The reason I read ‘Roadside Picnic’ was that I had seen ‘Stalker’, another slow paced Tarkovsky film I like…


= So... Have you liked the story? The Strugatskyes have written quite a lot of stories, one of them "Monday starts on Saturday". I think Adams would have liked the humor of it. Though the story is slightly out of time already...=


Greene is in a rather unique situation in that his reputation seems to have declined since his death, the opposite normally being the case. Personally I don’t understand why as I think he is head-and-shoulders the best English language writer of the 20th Century.
In case you don’t know Greene himself used to categorise some of his books as “Entertainments”, Stamboul Train was one, “Our man in Havana” another, although I find the “entertainments” and the more serious books equally enjoyable. Of the 15 or so books of his I have I’d say that “The Quiet American” was my favourite.
I’m not sure about him capturing the “English Soul” as we don’t really have this concept in the same way you would of the “Russian Soul”.
BTW, “Russian Soul” is a concept I still don’t understand, the more I talk to Russian’s the more I’m sure that they don’t either!

= Really, I don't think there is any such thing as the Misterious Russian Soul. It is very often that one hears about MISTERIOUS Russian soul, but I never heard any serious description of what it is. Some Russians like to pretend that we are very cultured and intelligent people - we like to speak to each other, we like to read, we are highly educated... We are poor in wealth, but we are rich in soul... And Americans, for example, are vice versa - rich and uncultured...

So I think that idea of a "special Russian soul" is a dumb one. There is no such thing, as a poor person is not necessary the good one, and a rich one - the bad one... You would not believe, but this theme is discussed constantly on many Russian forums, and pros and contras are sometimes equal...

As to Greene... I tend to think that an average Englishman is intelligent, thoughtful and sometimes spend too much time brooding over unlucky things one meets in life. (Really I would like to say more, but cannot find sufficient words for it). This must be wrong, as speaking about an average English man it is too easy to speak of an English Soul, and there hardly is one, as well the Russian one. But the impression I have because of Greene's books makes me think so.

Speaking about us Russians... I think sometimes that the main feature we all share is the tendency to let life be as it wishes, not trying to over-control, or sometimes even control it. It is a very bad feature, but it is much easier to live with it under your skin.

 

[Kenny Shovel]

So... Have you liked the story? The Strugatskyes have written quite a lot of stories

Its a few years since I read it but I seem to remember that it was good. There are only a few books by them available in English, ‘The Ugly Swans’, ‘Prisoners of Power’, ‘The Time Wanderers’, ‘Space Apprentice’, ‘Far Rainbow’, and also some short stories to be found in a couple of collections of Soviet Science Fiction. It’s interesting that some of these seem to be written separately but most together, which seems unusual.

Really, I don't think there is any such thing as the Mysterious Russian Soul. It is very often that one hears about MYSTERIOUS Russian soul, but I never heard any serious description of what it is.

The British film director David Lean made a famous version of Doctor Zhivargo during the 1960’s. In one scene the actor playing Zhivargo has to look down from a window at a scene of fighting in the streets where people are being killed; for this scene David Lean wanted a very specific look on the face of his actor. “Remember when you are making love to a woman,” he told him, “and you are about to climax but you are trying to hold back? That is the look I want when you look down at what is happening in the street”.
I showed this film to a Russian friend and after this particular scene she said to me “I never thought someone (who is not Russian), could so understand the Russian Soul!” I had to explain to her why I found that statement so funny!

Some Russians like to pretend that we are very cultured and intelligent people - we like to speak to each other, we like to read, we are highly educated... We are poor in wealth, but we are rich in soul... And Americans, for example, are vice versa - rich and uncultured...

Well everyone has a tendency to flatter themselves by believing positive national stereotypes and ignoring negative ones. However I do get the feeling that the teaching of history in Russia is considered important, which, in my opinion, is vital to a better understanding of the modern world.
In Britain there is also a tenancy to regard Americans as uncultured and stupid, and as much as I may not agree with the actions of their current administration, I sometimes find myself defending Americans in general from some of the things I hear being said about them.

As to Greene... I tend to think that an average Englishman is intelligent, thoughtful and sometimes spend too much time brooding over unlucky things one meets in life. (Really I would like to say more, but cannot find sufficient words for it). This must be wrong, as speaking about an average English man it is too easy to speak of an English Soul, and there hardly is one, as well the Russian one. But the impression I have because of Greene's books makes me think so.

I agree, with many discussions on books as soon as people start to include comparisons with national characteristics the whole discussion becomes littered with stereotypes. It’s probably better to say that Greene himself was an Englishman who was intelligent and thoughtful, oh, and if you believe his biographer, a British spy for most of his adult life.

Speaking about us Russians... I think sometimes that the main feature we all share is the tendency to let life be as it wishes, not trying to over-control, or sometimes even control it. It is a very bad feature, but it is much easier to live with it under your skin.

I would phrase it slightly differently, I have noticed a reluctance to plan something in case it does not happen. I can remember times when I have been told that ‘The English are different to us, you plan everything’ and my answer has been ‘No, the English are different to you, we plan something!’.

 

[Sergo]

Hi Kenny:

Its a few years since I read it but I seem to remember that it was good. There are only a few books by them available in English, ‘The Ugly Swans’, ‘Prisoners of Power’, ‘The Time Wanderers’, ‘Space Apprentice’, ‘Far Rainbow’, and also some short stories to be found in a couple of collections of Soviet Science Fiction. It’s interesting that some of these seem to be written separately but most together, which seems unusual.

= I have all the books by Strugatskyes, but I have no idea where one could find English translations of them. I am almost sure everything by them were translated, so it should be in the net somewhere... We have lots
"Far Rainbow" is one of the earliest things they wrote, and the least in their style, I think... =

The British film director David Lean made a famous version of Doctor Zhivargo during the 1960’s. In one scene the actor playing Zhivargo has to look down from a window at a scene of fighting in the streets where people are being killed; for this scene David Lean wanted a very specific look on the face of his actor. “Remember when you are making love to a woman,” he told him, “and you are about to climax but you are trying to hold back? That is the look I want when you look down at what is happening in the street”.
I showed this film to a Russian friend and after this particular scene she said to me “I never thought someone (who is not Russian), could so understand the Russian Soul!” I had to explain to her why I found that statement so funny!

= Errr... These film directors... They always make us learn what we think... Or, maybe, what we started to think the moment we saw what they had thought we should think...

Really, I had not read "Doctor Zhivago". Maybe I should - but I doubt that I would. I think maybe Zhivago's impressions could be slightly special because of him being a Jew. As I mentioned, there is a problem of antisemitism in Russia. From childhood I had many Jews as my friends (not being aware of the fact they were in any way different from me), and once I was deeply shocked when some senior boy in our school all of a sudden started calling my friend (now he is an American citizen and the president of the firm I work for) dirty names, repeating that he is nothing but a "dirty Jude". It is impossible to do anything about somebody not liking you for your nationality, so Jews were always more vulnerable in Russia, and it surely affected their perception. (Greene mentioned something like that in the Stamboul Train).=


Well everyone has a tendency to flatter themselves by believing positive national stereotypes and ignoring negative ones. However I do get the feeling that the teaching of history in Russia is considered important, which, in my opinion, is vital to a better understanding of the modern world.
In Britain there is also a tenancy to regard Americans as uncultured and stupid, and as much as I may not agree with the actions of their current administration, I sometimes find myself defending Americans in general from some of the things I hear being said about them.

= Yep, so do I - sometimes I say a word or two in favor of Americans on some of Russian forums, that I unfrequently attend.
About two years ago I had found some CNN forum on the Iraq problem and I was amased to read some Englishman message - it was so alike my own opinion on the situation around Afganistan, Iraq and the World-wide terrorism... It was even more strange that that opinion was mostly shared, at least to some extend, by other English people and some other Europeans on that forum, and strongly opposed by most Americans.=


I agree, with many discussions on books as soon as people start to include comparisons with national characteristics the whole discussion becomes littered with stereotypes. It’s probably better to say that Greene himself was an Englishman who was intelligent and thoughtful, oh, and if you believe his biographer, a British spy for most of his adult life.

= By the way, John LeCarre gives me about the same impression... =

I would phrase it slightly differently, I have noticed a reluctance to plan something in case it does not happen. I can remember times when I have been told that ‘The English are different to us, you plan everything’ and my answer has been ‘No, the English are different to you, we plan something!’.

= Great, I like your joke.
By the way, I feel lucky to find here a person with whom it is so interesting to speak. Thank you!

By the way, I am almost sure we will send our daughter to London this year - to take language courses. Could you please advise which way you would consider the best - living with some family, or in a campus? They offer both possibilities here.

 

[Kenny Shovel]

I have all the books by Strugatskyes, but I have no idea where one could find English translations of them. I am almost sure everything by them were translated, so it should be in the net somewhere...

I was checking amazon.co.uk which is the biggest British site, there may be more translations available in America; American publishers seem to be pretty good at translations from Eastern Europe.

Really, I had not read "Doctor Zhivago". Maybe I should - but I doubt that I would. I think maybe Zhivago's impressions could be slightly special because of him being a Jew. As I mentioned, there is a problem of antisemitism in Russia. From childhood I had many Jews as my friends (not being aware of the fact they were in any way different from me), and once I was deeply shocked when some senior boy in our school all of a sudden started calling my friend (now he is an American citizen and the president of the firm I work for) dirty names, repeating that he is nothing but a "dirty Jude". It is impossible to do anything about somebody not liking you for your nationality, so Jews were always more vulnerable in Russia, and it surely affected their perception. (Greene mentioned something like that in the Stamboul Train).

Anti-Semitism is not such a big problem here; certainly it is not acceptable to be so open in such views. However, British people tend to be sympathetic to the Palestinians and sometimes criticisms of Israel can get heated and come close to Anti-Semitic in tone.

About two years ago I had found some CNN forum on the Iraq problem and I was amazed to read some Englishman message - it was so alike my own opinion on the situation around Afganistan, Iraq and the World-wide terrorism... It was even more strange that that opinion was mostly shared, at least to some extend, by other English people and some other Europeans on that forum, and strongly opposed by most Americans.

The majority of people in Britain were against the war in Iraq and continue to be so, I took part in an anti-war march in London just before it started, and there were one, perhaps two, million people taking part. That does not mean that all people feel this way; in general there is more sympathy for the American action here than in other European countries like France or Germany, but most were still against.
In general there also more cynicism about the “War on Terrorism” here than in America; perhaps because the British are a cynical people, perhaps because our own experiences with terrorism make us think of things in less of a black-and-white manor.

By the way, I feel lucky to find here a person with whom it is so interesting to speak. Thank you!

Sure, likewise.

By the way, I am almost sure we will send our daughter to London this year - to take language courses.

Zdorava! Pazdravlyayul! (Sorry, I don’t have Cyrillic font on this computer!)

Could you please advise which way you would consider the best - living with some family, or in a campus? They offer both possibilities here.

I’m not sure when you say “They offer both possibilities here” if you mean this is what happens in Russia or if that is what British schools offer. I’ll assume you mean in London.
Well, I’m not sure I can provide a different or better point of view to your own. Obviously living with a family will give her an insight into the way ordinary British people live, but perhaps she would feel slightly restricted living in someone else’s house. Living on campus would be more independent, and also would mean living with people from many different countries. Perhaps she could start on campus and speak to other students who are living with families to see if she was interested in changing? Ultimately though I would think the best thing to do would be whatever your daughter is most comfortable with, and that probably depends on her personality, age and current level of English.

 

[Sergo]

I’m not sure when you say “They offer both possibilities here” if you mean this is what happens in Russia or if that is what British schools offer. I’ll assume you mean in London.
Well, I’m not sure I can provide a different or better point of view to your own. Obviously living with a family will give her an insight into the way ordinary British people live, but perhaps she would feel slightly restricted living in someone else’s house. Living on campus would be more independent, and also would mean living with people from many different countries. Perhaps she could start on campus and speak to other students who are living with families to see if she was interested in changing? Ultimately though I would think the best thing to do would be whatever your daughter is most comfortable with, and that probably depends on her personality, age and current level of English.[/QUOTE]

Yep, I meant that the firm which will organize things here in Moscow - you know, taking care of visa and all the possible details - offers these two possibilities.
Yes - I have told my daughter exactly the same, but she is slightly dubious about what she better do...

 

[Sergo]

Quote:
I was checking amazon.co.uk which is the biggest British site, there may be more translations available in America; American publishers seem to be pretty good at translations from Eastern Europe.

= And there should be some free translations on our Russian sites - our people just love to give for free things that could be sold =

Quote:

Anti-Semitism is not such a big problem here; certainly it is not acceptable to be so open in such views. However, British people tend to be sympathetic to the Palestinians and sometimes criticisms of Israel can get heated and come close to Anti-Semitic in tone.

= Yep, I see - sometimes our discussion of the Palestinian situation, or our local Chechen problem - could get quite heated. And if Russians were historically pro-arab in the Palestinian case (though slightly drifting to neutral position due to changed media coverage), in the Chechen case most of us think that the Chechens should be taught a tough lesson, and some even would like them to be wiped from the Earth. It is really difficult to speak with such persons, but I think that our authorities are responsible for this, as too much lies about Chechens circulates freely here...=


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergo
By the way, I am almost sure we will send our daughter to London this year - to take language courses.

Zdorava! Pazdravlyayul! (Sorry, I don’t have Cyrillic font on this computer!)

= Thanks, I am sure she will like it there, as my wife and me did... =

 

[Kenny Shovel]

Yep, I meant that the firm which will organize things here in Moscow - you know, taking care of visa and all the possible details - offers these two possibilities.
Yes - I have told my daughter exactly the same, but she is slightly dubious about what she better do...

Perhaps the best advice would come from this company? Anyway I'm sure she'll make her mind up eventually!

there should be some free translations on our Russian sites - our people just love to give for free things that could be sold

..and have an interesting view on copyright laws...I'm thinking of the computer software stalls I found in Odessa!

Yep, I see - sometimes our discussion of the Palestinian situation, or our local Chechen problem - could get quite heated. And if Russians were historically pro-arab in the Palestinian case (though slightly drifting to neutral position due to changed media coverage), in the Chechen case most of us think that the Chechens should be taught a tough lesson, and some even would like them to be wiped from the Earth. It is really difficult to speak with such persons, but I think that our authorities are responsible for this, as too much lies about Chechens circulates freely here...

Sure, the Western media has a different take on this, on the whole it tries to be more balanced, although I can't remember seeing anything that explained just how much bad blood there is between Russia and Chechnia and just how long it has been flowing.

 

[honeydevil]

hey and welcome! enjoy your time!

 

[Sergo]

Quote

Sure, the Western media has a different take on this, on the whole it tries to be more balanced, although I can't remember seeing anything that explained just how much bad blood there is between Russia and Chechnia and just how long it has been flowing.


= The case is quite intricate. Chechnya nas been the nest of troublemakers once, in the middle of XIX century, until Russia defeated it. After that Chechnya has been "mostly harmless" region until the reign of Stalin and the 2nd WW. It is said that the Chechens decided to help the Germans (I have tryed to check that in the documents - and couldn't confirm this: there were never enough Russian forces send to "peacefy" Chechens. It is obvious that to deal with the so called Chechen Army some serious forces should have been deployed. Instead of that only relatively small KGB regiment has dealt with the Chechens: they circled mountainers and got them all transported to the "Cold Regions", which are in abundance here. There were almost no killed or wounded among KGB solders, not more than it is usual for regular manoeuvres, so no real fighting had been done there.
And many Chechens died en route to Siberia etc., or there, as they were not given houses or food, but had to build themselves etc.
After many years Chechens were allowed to return to their land - but they met other people there.

So this problem started with the Chechens nearly killed by us for nothing and left without their own land.

Then of course some people in Russia and Chechnya began to pursue their own purposes, and the Chechen problem became a boiling kettle. That there is oil there, and oil from other regions gets transported through Chechnya, added to the flames. Chechens had done some harm - some people here believe that that had been a great harm to Russia.

So... The problem is as usual: both sides think another more guilty, and not worthy of serious talks... I think that we must be ashamed of what had been done to Chechens in the past, and situation must be untangled from that point forward. But Putin and those behind him will never do so, exactly as many Israelites will never acknowledge that they live on Arab lands...

 

[Sergo]

hey and welcome! enjoy your time!

Hi honeydevil!

I surely do so, thanX.

 

[Kenny Shovel]

The case is quite intricate. Chechnya nas been the nest of troublemakers once, in the middle of XIX century, until Russia defeated it.

Actually I do know a bit about the history and how deep-rooted the problems are, but I don’t think this has ever really been explained in too much depth by the British media.
A friend had explained how Chechen-Russian conflicts go back a long time, it is also something you occasionally find referenced in Russian literature; I am thinking of things like ‘Hadji Murat’ by Tolstoy.

After that Chechnya has been "mostly harmless" region until the reign of Stalin and the 2nd WW. It is said that the Chechens decided to help the Germans (I have tryed to check that in the documents - and couldn't confirm this

There is plenty of evidence about the Chechens who fought for the Red Army though….

and got them all transported to the "Cold Regions", which are in abundance here. ……….And many Chechens died en route to Siberia etc., or there, as they were not given houses or food, but had to build themselves etc….After many years Chechens were allowed to return to their land - but they met other people there…..So this problem started with the Chechens nearly killed by us for nothing and left without their own land.

Yes, transporting an entire population into exile and killing about a quarter of them in the process: Uncle Joe, not a guy to annoy. I’ve just been reading an article on it all here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Chechnya not sure how accurate it is.

BTW, had a look at a couple of web-sites for English Language schools and for some being ‘on campus’ seems to mean 1 or 2 person flats near to the college rather than a larger building owned and run by the college and divided up into student rooms. It may be worth checking with this firm what they mean by ‘on campus’. However I would say that living in a small flat is all part of the ‘being a student in London’ life-style, perhaps this is the best option after all?

 

[Sergo]

Actually I do know a bit about the history and how deep-rooted the problems are, but I don’t think this has ever really been explained in too much depth by the British media.
A friend had explained how Chechen-Russian conflicts go back a long time, it is also something you occasionally find referenced in Russian literature; I am thinking of things like ‘Hadji Murat’ by Tolstoy.

= Exactly. It is very unusual to speak with a Westerner who knows Russian history better than an average Russian. =


There is plenty of evidence about the Chechens who fought for the Red Army though….

= Exactly. If one checks quantity of oficial heroes among Chechens - the percentage would be one of the highest, and quantity of deserters is quite low, notwithstanding the official version. =


Yes, transporting an entire population into exile and killing about a quarter of them in the process: Uncle Joe, not a guy to annoy. I’ve just been reading an article on it all here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Chechnya not sure how accurate it is.

= I will try to read it and will comment. I have quite a busy time now - too many problems with transportation at the moment, lots of new customers... =

BTW, had a look at a couple of web-sites for English Language schools and for some being ‘on campus’ seems to mean 1 or 2 person flats near to the college rather than a larger building owned and run by the college and divided up into student rooms. It may be worth checking with this firm what they mean by ‘on campus’. However I would say that living in a small flat is all part of the ‘being a student in London’ life-style, perhaps this is the best option after all?

= Thanks, I will explain that to my daughter, it is for her to take the final decision. =

By the way, what do you think of LeCarre?

 

[Kenny Shovel]

Exactly. It is very unusual to speak with a Westerner who knows Russian history better than an average Russian.

I’m not sure about that! I know bits and pieces about Russian history and the impression it left on friends. Like ‘Russia save West from Destruction twice, Mongols and Nazis’ and ‘Russia won war, West just join in when most of fighting finished!’; I can hear them saying that in my head!
As I said before, I’ve always had the impression the average Russian has a far better understanding of history than people in the West.

I will try to read it and will comment. I have quite a busy time now - too many problems with transportation at the moment, lots of new customers...

Lots of new customers is not the worst problem for a businessman.

Thanks, I will explain that to my daughter, it is for her to take the final decision.

Of course, like there is a chance in hell you can tell a Russian woman what to do anyway! But I’m sure she’ll have a good time whatever her accomadation.

By the way, what do you think of LeCarre?

The only LeCarre I have read is Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy and that was about 20 years ago, I can’t remember a thing about it!

 

[Sergo]

Hi

I’m not sure about that! I know bits and pieces about Russian history and the impression it left on friends. Like ‘Russia save West from Destruction twice, Mongols and Nazis’ and ‘Russia won war, West just join in when most of fighting finished!’; I can hear them saying that in my head!
As I said before, I’ve always had the impression the average Russian has a far better understanding of history than people in the West.

= Alas you are wrong here. Russia is really a lot of small places, in most of which it is impossible for people to get educated about as well as it is normal in StPetersburg, Moscow, Ekaterinburg etc. So an average Russian, for example, hardly knows anything about Chechnya save for that Chechens have black asses and used to kidnapping, making false money and blowing out houses. Though maybe it's the same in the West...

And as to Mongols and Nazis... We had no other alternative, had we? There had been too many of us, and it was too hard to manage us for Mongols to get enough forces to strike West effectively... =


Lots of new customers is not the worst problem for a businessman.

= Of course, surely, I am very glad to have them - my income depends very much on my customers... But it takes so much time... =

Of course, like there is a chance in hell you can tell a Russian woman what to do anyway! But I’m sure she’ll have a good time whatever her accomadation.

= Yesss, you are right. Our women are known for most "illogical" behaviour. I have known one very beautiful girl myself - not too intimately, alas - who got a letter from some person doing a very long term in a prison, decided that she loved the guy, and moved to Siberia in order to live near him (mind, she had never seen him before!). The last time I heard about her - she had been pregnant and the guy was still in prison... She worked at some factory there... And she could get almost any man she wished here in Moscow... =

The only LeCarre I have read is Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy and that was about 20 years ago, I can’t remember a thing about it!

= I see... I had not read "Our man in Havana" by Greene, but I somehow get an impression that it should be like "The Tailor of Panama" by LeCarre... I think LeCarre likes Greene very much... =

 

[Kenny Shovel]

Alas you are wrong here. Russia is really a lot of small places, in most of which it is impossible for people to get educated about as well as it is normal in StPetersburg, Moscow, Ekaterinburg etc.

Interesting, the Russians I have met have been from big cities like St Petersburg, Kiev, Odessa; a guy I used to work with was from Ekaterinburg.

And as to Mongols and Nazis... We had no other alternative, had we? There had been too many of us, and it was too hard to manage us for Mongols to get enough forces to strike West effectively...

Sure, I like your take on history; it is a similar attitude to mine. I think people tend to learn the history that puts their country in a good light and use it to make them feel good about who they are. Reality is somewhat different however, historically when a country does something we look back on as being correct or noble it is often because that was the only course open to them, or they picked the lesser of two evils.

= Yesss, you are right. Our women are known for most "illogical" behaviour. I have known one very beautiful girl myself - not too intimately, alas - who got a letter from some person doing a very long term in a prison, decided that she loved the guy, and moved to Siberia in order to live near him (mind, she had never seen him before!). The last time I heard about her - she had been pregnant and the guy was still in prison... She worked at some factory there... And she could get almost any man she wished here in Moscow...

Women falling in love with violent prisoners they have never met is not just confined to Russia! It happens in the West too.
My own example of not understanding Russian women was when my friend was staying with me. We had planned to do something in London, I forget what exactly, but I had spent quite some time organising and collecting information etc. Come the day she decided she wanted to do something completely different, but the thing I didn’t understand was her explanation for why. She just looked at me as if I was an idiot to expect us to do what she had previously wanted and said “Women are very capricious, we are like cats”, turned round and walked off as if that explained everything. After that I just gave up and did what I was told, I was clearly out of my depth trying to reason with her!

... I had not read "Our man in Havana" by Greene, but I somehow get an impression that it should be like "The Tailor of Panama" by LeCarre... I think LeCarre likes Greene very much...

“Our Man in Havana” is much less serious, without wanting to give too much away a English salesman in Cuba is recruited to be a spy, and he realises that if he invents the names of locals he himself has recruited and files false reports he can make money, until that is things start to go wrong for him…It’s a great little book. BTW I see you are reading ‘The Comedians” now, this is one of my favourite of Greene’s ‘entertainments’.

 

[Sergo]

Interesting, the Russians I have met have been from big cities like St Petersburg, Kiev, Odessa; a guy I used to work with was from Ekaterinburg.

= Yep, exactly. Alas if you move deeper into our countryside - you would find places where there is no electricity even... Small villages without a food store, or a school... Imagine that to get educated or fed one has to walk several kilometers, as in those places nobody has enough money to buy a car, and not many horses are left... Of course a person can do very much on his/her own, the good example of this is our Mikhail Lomonosov, but an average person usually doesn't have stamina enough to defeat the social environment they appear to be stuck in. =

Sure, I like your take on history; it is a similar attitude to mine. I think people tend to learn the history that puts their country in a good light and use it to make them feel good about who they are. Reality is somewhat different however, historically when a country does something we look back on as being correct or noble it is often because that was the only course open to them, or they picked the lesser of two evils.

= Thanks. I do not think a grown up person needs any retouching to be done on history. I love my country not for our ballet, or the first cosmonaut, or our nuclear strength of the past. I love it because I was born here, and I do not think I would ever leave Russia for economical reasons.
So, I am aware of all the evil things that were done in Russia and by Russians, but I do not think that the Russians of today could be held responsible for what they had not done any more than contemporary Americans are responsible for slaughtering of Indians, the French - for the bloodshed arranged by Napoleon, the Germans - for the crimes of the Nazis...
We live today and we try not to multiply evil of the world by our deeds, and we could be responsible only for our own failing at that.
Otherwise peoples will live in constant grudge against each other. Alas, it seems to be often the case now. =

Women falling in love with violent prisoners they have never met is not just confined to Russia! It happens in the West too.

= Yep, that's another proof that all people are the same. =

My own example of not understanding Russian women was when my friend was staying with me. We had planned to do something in London, I forget what exactly, but I had spent quite some time organising and collecting information etc. Come the day she decided she wanted to do something completely different, but the thing I didn’t understand was her explanation for why. She just looked at me as if I was an idiot to expect us to do what she had previously wanted and said “Women are very capricious, we are like cats”, turned round and walked off as if that explained everything. After that I just gave up and did what I was told, I was clearly out of my depth trying to reason with her!

= Ehhh... I am living with my wife for nearly 16 years... And I will be damned if I could understand her now more than fifteen years ago... =

“Our Man in Havana” is much less serious, without wanting to give too much away a English salesman in Cuba is recruited to be a spy, and he realises that if he invents the names of locals he himself has recruited and files false reports he can make money, until that is things start to go wrong for him…It’s a great little book. BTW I see you are reading ‘The Comedians” now, this is one of my favourite of Greene’s ‘entertainments’.

= And "Tailor of Panama" is about an Englishman with a difficult youth who was approached by a young and very ambitious man from SIS, trying to establish a new spy net in the Central America. And the tailor was gradually made to invent information, rather then "to take" it: that way it made the man from SIS look more important and getting better paid... And it also ended not well...

Yes, I've started "The Comedians". Alas, it is quite difficult to read in our undergraund now - lots of girls, feeling that Spring is near, started to wear as less as possible in our not yet enough warm weather, and it is quite a demanding task to keep reading with all these leggy marvels swarming around=

 

[Kenny Shovel]

= Yep, exactly. Alas if you move deeper into our countryside - you would find places where there is no electricity even... Small villages without a food store, or a school... Imagine that to get educated or fed one has to walk several kilometers, as in those places nobody has enough money to buy a car, and not many horses are left…

I knew there was a big difference between life in a Russian City and the Russian countryside but not that it was this wide and affected education. In Britain I think you could make the argument that the ‘standard of living’ or ‘quality of life’ was higher in the countryside.

I do not think a grown up person needs any retouching to be done on history……… We live today and we try not to multiply evil of the world by our deeds, and we could be responsible only for our own failing at that.

Absolutely, I have an interest in history and I find it annoying when people use their small biased knowledge of the past to fight the arguments of today. For example, because the French government does not do what the White House wants, some Americans make fun of the French and call them cowards; but anyone with a half decent knowledge of history knows that this is far from the truth.
Our duty to the past is to learn from it, not to use it as a tool to advance our political opinions or to feel that the crimes of the past oppress us. When I look at my own families history I see that from my Grandfathers back we have been farm workers, as such I doubt my family is anymore responsible for British involvement in the Trans-Atlantic slave trade than it is for the achievements of Newton, Darwin and Shakespeare.

Yep, that's another proof that all people are the same.

The more you travel the more you see that countries are different but people the same.

... I am living with my wife for nearly 16 years... And I will be damned if I could understand her now more than fifteen years ago...

She would say you’re not paying attention!

And "Tailor of Panama" is about an Englishman with a difficult youth who was approached by a young and very ambitious man from SIS, trying to establish a new spy net in the Central America. And the tailor was gradually made to invent information, rather then "to take" it: that way it made the man from SIS look more important and getting better paid... And it also ended not well...

Ah, I see the similarity.

Yes, I've started "The Comedians". Alas, it is quite difficult to read in our undergraund now - lots of girls, feeling that Spring is near, started to wear as less as possible in our not yet enough warm weather, and it is quite a demanding task to keep reading with all these leggy marvels swarming around

Yes, I’ve been on the metro in Kiev during the summer; young Russian women do like to put there legs ‘in the shop window’ don’t they!

 

[Sergo]

I knew there was a big difference between life in a Russian City and the Russian countryside but not that it was this wide and affected education. In Britain I think you could make the argument that the ‘standard of living’ or ‘quality of life’ was higher in the countryside.

=Alas, it isn't so here. Of course in my country home (quite modest, really, by our standards) I have everything I have in my city flat - including internet by GPRS, and even more, as a real forest is just eight meters away from our fence, but it is very far from that in our original villages. We have very big difference between the rich and the poor: rich have large palaces of 500 - 700 sq. meters for a family of two - five, and poor sometimes have to sleep with their valenki & teloghreyka on, as they have to save on coal and gas, and their ancient huts are not too well insulated...=

Absolutely, I have an interest in history and I find it annoying when people use their small biased knowledge of the past to fight the arguments of today. For example, because the French government does not do what the White House wants, some Americans make fun of the French and call them cowards; but anyone with a half decent knowledge of history knows that this is far from the truth.
Our duty to the past is to learn from it, not to use it as a tool to advance our political opinions or to feel that the crimes of the past oppress us. When I look at my own families history I see that from my Grandfathers back we have been farm workers, as such I doubt my family is anymore responsible for British involvement in the Trans-Atlantic slave trade than it is for the achievements of Newton, Darwin and Shakespeare.

=Yes, I cannot say better. Though I wouldn't say that descendants of the Slavetraders or these of Newton etc. should be considered responsible for their ancestors' deeds... But I am sure you wouldn't too.

By the way, that were my Grandfather and Grandmother who moved to Moscow from some God-forgotten village in the beginning of XX century - so my ancestors were also farm workers until about one hundred years ago...=

She would say you’re not paying attention!

= Yep, she surely says so once in a while. But we love each other, so she says other things sometimes. =


Yes, I’ve been on the metro in Kiev during the summer; young Russian women do like to put there legs ‘in the shop window’ don’t they!

= Yesss, they do. And Kiev, I think, is even worse in that respect than Moscow, as it is warmer and poorer - we have too many beautiful girls never going by underground already... They prefer Mercedeses, Porshes and even Bentleys...=