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Self Publishing v/s Traditional Publishing

Stewart, I think your original statement of "You don't know what you are talking about is beginning to point harshly back in your face. I do not mean to be rude when I say that you have certainly not studied the problem nor have you tried to understand it by asking me questions, you have simply done an Amazon protecting attack.
I don't know why you would think I would want to protect Amazon , they are persona non grata at the moment (link1 | link 2). When it comes to online book buying, I tend to do mine via The Book Depository. Much better.

I would [if I were you] examine all the Amazon lists and see how many books are suffering my fate, simply look for those they quote as stock not available and check the price they are offering, I will bet that books being sold on the net from other sites will be very low [to keep the customer waiting for that price] or very high [to dissuade the customer from buying at all],

Such is the way of the book buying world. Even Nobel Laureates like Samuel Beckett are not immune from limited edition books' availability. The crux is, you registered an ISBN, do you actually think Amazon went out of its way to manually put your book on its sites? No, it would have happened automatically via an XML feed. I don't know the circumstances of how you self-published but your registered ISBN would be made available to all book sellers, hence why you're book appears on the aforementioned Book Depository, as well as many other book selling sites.
There appears to be only one point to their exercise and that is to stop Authors and small publishers from sell their produce on the Internet and that is tantamount to dictating what people can read.
This is just paranoid nonsense. Amazon is better able to squeeze profits out of smaller publishers without the clout to fight back. They wouldn't price their own profits out of the market. That just doesn't make business sense.
Stewart, you must have a book written, go offer it to Amazon and ask them to market it in England and see what the reply will be, "You must have a warehouse facility for several thousand of your books, you must have an English Credit card, you must have British selling rights and etc
No, I have no book written, and even if I did I fail to see how it would be relevant.
. So why pray tell, are Amazon advertising an unknown with such enthusiasm?
They are not marketing it, they are selling it. Marketing is promotion, selling is sales.
 
ARTICLE 16

WHAT ARE TP, SP, SMALL, POD PRESSES, VANITY AND SUBSIDY PUBLISHERS? Part 2


But to get the book into the public's hands, an SP author is dependant on the services of a printer to put the book in final form. There are two types of presses available to a self published author. One is using the services of a small offset press -- the same ones that a small publisher uses. Normally, they require a minimum press run of 2,500 to 5,000 books. However, many SP authors can't afford this sort of up-front cost and have nowhere to warehouse the completed volumes.

So, a SP author's second option is a Print On Demand, or POD press. By using digital presses, a POD printer can store the completed manuscript, dimensions, cover art, plus any photos or graphs in a electronic folder and, "on demand" print out 100, 10 or even a single volume of the book. This makes it quite easy for an author to sell their books, because nothing has to be printed until the book is already sold -- making the prospect of recouping the expense guaranteed.

But the POD technology has also led to a whole new type of publisher -- the Vanity Publisher and Subsidy Publisher. What is the difference between them? Well, in reality -- there isn't one. Mind you, there used to be a difference. Before POD technology, a subsidy publisher was one which wasn't quite a small press. They would find obscure novels and give them a chance, but because their finances were tight, they would ask for a small helping hand from the author to pay the printer for the first edition. That is to say, for a full press run of 2,500 copies, they would pay half and the author would pay half, and the subsidy press would then warehouse and sell the book as a traditional publisher does. The author would receive back their money for the print run as books were sold until paid back and then would drop into the more traditional royalty-based pay. Reviewers for newspapers and magazines looked kindly on subsidy presses, for the most part, because they were Small Press wanna-be's that would eventually turn into a solid company.

But all that changed with POD entered the picture. Suddenly, anyone could claim to be a publisher and take on manuscripts to earn money from -- all with no dollars out of pocket!

Now, to be fair, some subsidy publishers state up front that they are a printer. They make no bones about the fact that the AUTHOR bears the full financial responsibility for the production of the book. You will probably never recoup your investment, get a review, or make your fortune. And, the out of pocket investment can be quite large -- thousands of dollars more than a small press would pay to publish a book, because you're only doing it one at a time. But these fee-based subsidy presses DO actually have a niche in the world. They are perfect for family histories, where only a dozen or a hundred people will be interested in the book. They are great for organization cookbook fundraisers and the like. They are being paid to perform a service for people who don't have a publisher in the family. This is terrific, because books that might never have seen the light of day can make it to print. This is the good sort of Vanity Press -- the desire to see a product in print that a large publisher would probably never look at. Perhaps it's vain to want to hold a book in your hands, but sometimes it's enough to make the writer happy. An author is unlikely to ever get a book published by a vanity/subsidy publisher reviewed. The magazines, newspapers and websites don't consider them "published." The publishing industry as a whole actually considers a vanity/subsidy publisher to be LESS than a self-published book. It's not considered a writing credit for any future contract negotiations with a large publisher. Vanity publishers are nothing more than "printers" to the rest of the book industry. The good vanity publishers know this. If they use the term "publisher" at all, it is meant to mean that they assist in formatting the book before it is printed.

Unfortunately, some vanity publishers have taken advantage of the good name that subsidy publishers once had and have ruined it. They have led aspiring authors to believe that they are good and kind small presses which only want to help by-pass the rigmarole that traditional presses "put an author through." But therein resides the lie of dishonest vanity presses -- traditional publishers and small publishers are CONSTANTLY seeking new writers. But they do expect a writer to have mastered his/her craft. Dishonest vanity publishers have no such expectation. They will print EXACTLY what is given to them. If editing is done at all, it is to correct things like punctuation or word choice. Part of the lie is that they are just like traditional publishers, who will edit these things, but they fail to mention that traditional publishers ALSO edit the plot, the characters, timeline and motivation. These are required to make the best book possible. A vanity publisher isn't concerned about the best book, because the author is paying the bill. And if the author is not paying the bill -- a terrific ploy by some vanity publishers -- then the BUYER is footing the bill. While the cost to publish is not out of the author's pocket, it is ALSO not out of the publisher's pocket. They are not willing to take on the financial risk of publishing. A similar trade paperback that will retail for $14.95 from a traditional or small publisher will cost $19.95 to $24.95 from a vanity publisher -- so the end reader is paying the actual expense of printing (plus profit to the publisher, which is how they can maintain their business). Most author contracts state that royalties are based on NET sales, rather than on retail price, so the extra cost of the book does not benefit the author at all.

REMEMBER THE GOLDEN RULE: Gold flows TO the author, not away from the author. If you want to write the one book that's in your head, and never expect to write another; never expect to have a career of writing; and never hope to make enough money to REPLACE your day-job salary, then a subsidy publisher is probably fine. But if you are an aspiring author who hopes to build a career of five, ten or a hundred books, then you should learn your craft, take your time, and stay with the traditional publisher or small press.

**********
Hope this helps some. The other articles referenced in here are on my website (I didn't feel like editing to find all the references). The link is below. Good luck!

Cathy

WOW great information thanks.

Erm i wrote a book, i just give it away for free and dont have an intention to sell any tips?
 
I have been thinking since finishing up with my novel that I would possibly self publish. Please weight the pro's and con's for me. I am still intrested in traditional publishing, but self publishing at Self Publishing - Lulu.com seems easy and free. Any advice recommended. Thanks in advance.

Justin

I just wrote up a comparison article on POD self-publishing companies. I have a few books through Lulu and also on Authorcrossing. There's a link to my article on my blog. Lulu is a good choice for a self-publisher with zero dollars to spend up front, and they don't charge to upload a DIY cover, btu thier printing costs are quite high, and then the shipping cost proves yet another reason why folks are turning to eBooks.
 
Trying to find an agent or Traditional Publisher can be a long drawn-out fruitless endeavor. Rejection is the norm. And the biggest confusion over rejection is that there is little way of knowing why. That's why so many turn to self-publishing in all of its various renditions.

Before deciding on a particular approach, I recommend reading Why Is There Such a Negative Buzz About Subsidy Presses?, an editorial at readerviews.com.

And get a copy of Are You Still Submitting Your Work to a Traditional Publisher? by Edward C. Patterson. It's a must read. The ebook is FREE at smashwords.com

Publishing an ebook through Smashwords or Kindle is free and easy and a good way to find out if there really is an audience for your book. As an example, the ebook edition of my mystery novel, 'Life's a Bitch. So am I.' Rachel Cord, P.I., has sold more than 600 copies since November, while my paperback edition is just over 200 sold in a year-and-a-half.
 
Well I know people who are making good beer-money from (self) publishing on the Kindle Store.

If you've nothing to loose, why not throw up a couple of your older stories on the Kindle Store, or on feedbooks or something, first; like I did.... er, I hope that dosn't count as self-publicising.
 
I would hardly call the money earned by those on Konrath's list of self-published writers (recently posted) to be mere "beer money", unless it be some extraordinary beer.

Even if the earnings of some prove meager, most folks appreciate a bit of extra coin in a hard economy.


Well I know people who are making good beer-money from (self) publishing on the Kindle Store.

If you've nothing to loose, why not throw up a couple of your older stories on the Kindle Store, or on feedbooks or something, first; like I did.... er, I hope that dosn't count as self-publicising.
 
The choice of publishing route really depends on your goals. Self publishing is not considered a poor second choice today, some very good books started as self publish but the authors knew their market, went out and aggressively marketed their books and turned them into big sales and ended up with contracts at very respectable publishing houses for subsequent books. Of course, that presumes that you have a solid marketing plan, can get out there and sell those books in big numbers, etc. Not many people can successfully do that because it is a full time job.
Agents don't especially want to look at self published authors. They consider a track record in publishing to be published through a bonafide company where the author is getting paid.
Again, I think it depends on your goals and what you aim to achieve and how realistic the prospects of achieving those goals are.

Elle
 
. . . to be published through a bonafide company where the author is getting paid. . .
Elle

Elled,
That seems to be the clearest definition I have yet seen of what it means to be "published." Is it generally so, as far as you know? I have seen confusion over whether posting to the internet constitutes "previously published" in some editors eyes.
 
That's a good question and not necessarily simple to answer. Getting published can mean a lot of things. For example, for most academics, getting published is a necessity but academics for the most part,do not get paid for articles they publish in a scholarly venue. BUT they are published. AND at some point, that track record might be very important in landing a book contract in the non-fiction area or whatever their particular area of expertise may be and there could be cross over to fiction. Just as example, Kathy Reichs still works as an academic, as far as I know, yet continues to write bestselling fiction. Diana Gabaldon also started out as an academic and Jennifer Crusie is still working in academia and also very successful in her genre. So having some expertise in a particular area, even if you have no track record in fiction, could still help sell you an author assuming your fiction is an excellent piece of writing. Your cover letter should state succinctly what qualification you have to be writing whatever the book is. Sooo, if you have written a spy thriller and worked at the CIA for 20 years, well, gee, that gives you credibility, doesn't it?
Now, is being published on Internet considered being published? Yes, anywhere you publish is considering being published but for agents, publishers, etc. they are generally looking at a track record where in some shape or form the author is getting paid because in the end, it is a business and getting to be a harder business all the time. It also helps if you have had good reviews of your work and you have consistently published and therefore, not a one-shot wonder.
I hope that answers some of the question and clarified some confusion in your mind.
Elle
 
That's a good question and not necessarily simple to answer. Getting published can mean a lot of things. For example, for most academics, getting published is a necessity but academics for the most part,do not get paid for articles they publish in a scholarly venue. BUT they are published. AND at some point, that track record might be very important in landing a book contract in the non-fiction area or whatever their particular area of expertise may be and there could be cross over to fiction. Just as example, Kathy Reichs still works as an academic, as far as I know, yet continues to write bestselling fiction. Diana Gabaldon also started out as an academic and Jennifer Crusie is still working in academia and also very successful in her genre. So having some expertise in a particular area, even if you have no track record in fiction, could still help sell you an author assuming your fiction is an excellent piece of writing. Your cover letter should state succinctly what qualification you have to be writing whatever the book is. Sooo, if you have written a spy thriller and worked at the CIA for 20 years, well, gee, that gives you credibility, doesn't it?
Now, is being published on Internet considered being published? Yes, anywhere you publish is considering being published but for agents, publishers, etc. they are generally looking at a track record where in some shape or form the author is getting paid because in the end, it is a business and getting to be a harder business all the time. It also helps if you have had good reviews of your work and you have consistently published and therefore, not a one-shot wonder.
I hope that answers some of the question and clarified some confusion in your mind.
Elle
Thank you very much, indeed! That was the clearest most informative discussion of the subject I have yet seen.
Many thanks for taking the time, and promptly.
:flowers::flowers:
Peder
 
You are very welcome. I think you have to clarify your goals:
Is it get published no matter what, when, where?
Get published but get paid no matter how little?
Win the Nobel Prize for Literature? <g> --don't hold your breath for that one!

Once you get some definitive idea of where you want to go, well, you're on your way at least. All of them are legitimate goals. I have met a lot of elderly people over the years that want me to write their memoirs, very generously offering to share royalties. At least, they think they are generous because they are convinced they have a bestseller in them.
I don't want to hurt them by telling them, nobody is going to buy this story, you are not going to make a mint, and frankly I have my own writing to do and don't need your stories. I tell them as politely as I can that the very act of writing it themselves is important, in their own voice which seems to pacify them. Of course, I have received a few of these self published books in thanks and they all required major editing for a variety of reasons. What may be fascinating to that person is not at all interesting to another, or at least, me, but I never tell them that. I just send congratulations for achieving their goals and that their families will be grateful. Like I said, depends on your goals.

I think rather than post here, I might post a snippet on my website since I will have to do that anyway.
Every time I try to sign off here with my website, it brings up the first line of it instead of a clear address, no idea why.

Elle
 
I have been thinking since finishing up with my novel that I would possibly self publish. Please weight the pro's and con's for me. I am still intrested in traditional publishing, but self publishing at Self Publishing and Book Printing Solutions - Books, EBooks, Photo books and Calendars at Lulu.com seems easy and free. Any advice recommended. Thanks in advance.

Justin

Why do I think that self-publishing two of my books was a big mistake? Because only a tiny fraction of books ordered by big stores is self-published. Nearly all books reviewed in newspapers and magazines are from reputable publishers. Promoting books via Internet is not as effective as advertising organized by big companies. The know how to push books to stores.

But my experience with a self-publishing company was very good; I will be glad to recommend my publisher.
.
 
self pub

Hi Justin
Congratulations on finishing your novel. To self-pub or not? That depends on your goals, if it is to be published and that's it, it may be the way to go.
If you are trying to build a writing career, that's different. There have been some people who did the self pub route and went on to careers but they are rare and in every case they had good marketing plans.
Self pub may mean you don't have an editor, please find out, and everyone needs an editor no matter how well they write. You would need to know what cover grabs a reader and something about design. Chances are distribution could also be problematic, most large book stores don't take on self-pub, if they do, it is minimal. It may also mean you don't get reviews and agents will not look at that work and consider it in taking on a prospective client. So, again, it depends on your goals. Self pub is respectable route but it may not help you build a career. Check the costs and see how many books you have to sell to at least break even and how you can sell them and where they will be available.
Good luck

Elle
 
I think some people may be talking at cross purposes here.
I don’t think putting a ‘self published’ work up on kindle-store or whatever counts as a published-work in the ‘Published Author’ sense as the traditional market and agents see it.
For this they tend to look at what they traditionally call ‘paying markets’, e.g. some external entity, such as an editor or publisher, has accepted your work and pays you for the privilege. This holds true for everything from flash-fiction to the largest of Novels.

I do think ‘self’ e-publishing can and will play an ever increasing roll in developing your name and getting known to potential readers, as well as earn you some money in the process. If you happen to earn a significant amount of money from this, you can ask yourself if you really need to go the traditional route. Most people won’t earn a living wage from this but I think it shouldn’t be dismissed as a way to build up your name.

P.s. I see e-publishing like this as a different thing from vanity-press publishing.
 
Hi Garry

Well, again, it depends on the purpose of the author. Is it to get published no matter what? To make money? To build and develop a career as a writer? Yes it is possible to earn significant money on the e-self publishing route but not many people manage to do it. It does take a well developed marketing plan and a solid understanding of marketing. Irrespective, most agents and traditional publishing houses do not take e self pub as serious writing credentials at this point. That could always change since lots of things affect the business. For example. the problem with Borders not only affects their employees and customers but authors who are not getting shelf space, which translates into money factors for publishing houses, agents, etc.

Elle
 
After seeing 'The Bucket List', I decided to self-publish stories I had told as a storyteller. Finding a publisher can take years. Most want you to send the book exclusively to them; then they tell you it can take up to six months for them to respond.
As a children's author, but not an illustrator, that would also mean losing control of the pictures that accompany the book. Illustrations can make or break a picture book, regardless of how good the writing is. In addition, when debating about self-publishing or using a publisher or something like IUniverse (which I still don't get) I talked to someone who had a bad experience with a publisher. He hated the way they edited his book. I don't like the idea of handing over that kind of control. To date I have sold 3000+ of The Great Bellybutton Cover-up (I am now printing a revised version in hardcover), 1,000+ of The Kit Kat Caper and 500+ of Say Please to the Honeybees, (which I did not market as well as I should have). I have just published The Rose and the Lily. I have actually over-extended myself but one never knows how long they have, and three of these books have waited 20 years to be in print. How could I deny them? Yes, I have thousands of books in my basement; Moses, the cat, enjoys sleeping and climbing on them. But unless he throws up on them (unfortunately a definite possibility) they don't go bad and I will eventually sell them. At least my dream came true so it was worth every penny (many, many, many of them).
 
Hi Garry

Well, again, it depends on the purpose of the author. Is it to get published no matter what? To make money? To build and develop a career as a writer?
None of the above?


I have a profession, you could even stretch to calling it a career, and I make enough to be more-or-less comfortable.
So although more money is never a bad thing, I really want my work to be read, and hopefully enjoyed.
Right now that is my main aim!
 
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