The pussification of America

[Motokid]

I can't wait until I have kids so I can say "What part of no don't you understand?" and "Because I'm the mother, that's why".

Don't forget: "While you're under my roof you'll play by my rules..." "As long as I'm paying the biils...." and to steal from Bill Cosby "I brought you into this world, I can take you out...."

I'm pretty amazed at the responses to this thread. I really expected much more action from the "softer" side of parenting. From what I've read it appears most don't have a problem with knocking a kid about, and eccentially "bullying" their children into submission.

I'm not sure I want my kids to fear me. I would rather that they understand some behavior and actions would disappoint me or upset me, and that out of respect for me, that would be enough to keep them from getting into trouble.

Now if you're talking about very young kids I still don't quite understand how causing them physical pain is the best way to teach a lesson. If your child keeps getting too close to the street where cars drive by, and you want them to understand how dangerous it is to play there, the best way to do that is by spanking them every time they get close to the street?

 

[Ice]

I'm not sure I want my kids to fear me.

Just curious - but how many people here, who did get spanked on the odd occasion, feared their parents?

 

[Motokid]

Just curious - but how many people here, who did get spanked on the odd occasion, feared their parents?

Until I reached some age where the pain was not so bad the very phrase "Just you wait until your father gets home" was enough to cuase me to almost break down into tears.....does that count?

I just not sure fear and intimidation are the best tools for teaching what's wrong....

Isn't reward and celebration of good behavior better?

 

[Jemima Aslana]

Nah, spanking - while I don't think it'll hamr a kid - should be used carefully.

Your example with 'getting too close to the street' would not call down a spanking from me. That would more likely get a reaction along the lines of telling them how dangerous it can be, and how mommy would be very sad if they got hurt.

A spanking on the other hand... if I'd told the kids repeatedly that I do not want them to play soccer in the living room because they might smash something and they still do it - AND smash a fine old heirloom vase or whatnot - then a smack on the bottom is most definitely not a wrong thing to use.

If the kids are old enough to understand reason - then they should be reasoned with - if they're not, a smack won't harm them. It sure never harmed me.

I don't remember many spankings - but I do remember some, and I also remember never promising myself to never do what I'd done to deserve it ever again.

I don't believe in the molly-coddling of our children. As others have pointed out: how will they deal with real-life if they've gone through their school-years never experiencing a failure?

It's ironic - for many years in DK we've had rules forbidding giving marks to kids younger than so and so in order to prevent untowards competition amongst class-mates. That's fair enough and at the age of 12 or 13 iirc, we started getting marks. Now while the American society (most prominently among all of them) gets more and more scared of letting the kids face failures the Danish politicians have now allowed tests, exams and marks down to the age of 8 or 9. Because it'll get the kids to work harder for their achievements (That's the philosophy behind it at least)

Quite the contrast, no?

I must say, I'm worried about too much competition in the lower grades - because we should also remember to let the kids be kids and have a childhood, but I honestly don't think it's bad with some competition for them. Okay, so one kid will suck at football - he'll likely be the one to be doing well in Literature, and the other kid who sucked at football and maybe also at Literature studies he might just be the one to excel at Chemistry.

When will we teach our kids that no one can be good at everything? (Except for me - I *am* good at everything ) When will we teach our kids that in real life they will not be paid for showing up at work on time? They will be paid for doing their job satisfactory - no more no less. And they will not get bonuses for being done on time, but maybe they can negociate some if they're done in half the time.

*sigh*

I fear for future generations. I really do.

 

[SFG75]

Don't forget: "While you're under my roof you'll play by my rules..." "As long as I'm paying the biils...." and to steal from Bill Cosby "I brought you into this world, I can take you out...."

"Did is great....givin' us chocolate cake....Dad is great!......"<<<---best line out of that whole thing. I imagine that scene and I can't help but just laugh every time. Sometimes when I have to make food for the littles ones-the thought of chocolate cake enters my mind. "Father.......may we please have some....chocolate.......cake?"

I'm pretty amazed at the responses to this thread. I really expected much more action from the "softer" side of parenting. From what I've read it appears most don't have a problem with knocking a kid about, and eccentially "bullying" their children into submission.

I do, but it's the extremes of strictness and permissiveness that cause trouble. I have no problems with a person swatting their kid, though I do believe it's inefficient to do. With that being said, both spanking and "time-out" fail miserably if the parents aren't consistent and are determined to carry through with the given plan of action.

I'm not sure I want my kids to fear me. I would rather that they understand some behavior and actions would disappoint me or upset me, and that out of respect for me, that would be enough to keep them from getting into trouble

Like you, I'd rather have them understand why, rather than "feel" why something is wrong. At some point in life, you have to learn how to analyze certain situations and why you should or should not engage in them. I know too many kids who can't make a decision unless an adult is around to provide the incentive(or punishment) if they choose a given course of action.

Now if you're talking about very young kids I still don't quite understand how causing them physical pain is the best way to teach a lesson. If your child keeps getting too close to the street where cars drive by, and you want them to understand how dangerous it is to play there, the best way to do that is by spanking them every time they get close to the street?

Once again, it depends upon what course of action you want for consequences. The blue chair in our house is the absolutely worse thing in the world for our son. If you put him on his bottom, he also thinks that is tantamount to torture. Guess what?, we don't have problems with him going in the road. When he's pushed the line under our observation-there were consistent consequences and he doesn't try those boundaries any more. No Moto, I have no problems with people who spank their kid if the said child runs out into the street, just as long as they are consistent and don't over do it or use it for every little infraction.

On the "wussifcation" thing. I don't see the problem as over-pampering, though that probably is a cause. On the other side of the spectrum are parents who have absolutely no regard for their child whatsoever. I have one student whose parents will never answer the phone if you call from the school or if they know you are a teacher. They have caller I.D. and never pick up. They are the most unsupportive people on the face of the planet. Jr. acts up?, you're on your own because mom has her friends and dad is too busy hunting or washing his new pick-up truck to pay attention to what his son is dealing with at a given point in time. You also have ones that drink and whose children don't want to be there. I had a student three years ago run in front of a train rather than go and live with her mother. The lady is still out in the bars everynight-it's enough to make you want to slap people and confront them on their lousy morals.

I've had people yell at me rather than their child when their kid has cursed in class, threw a test back at me, or are upset the kid is flunking when jr. or little miss. refuse to do any of the work and talk back. I especially love the ones who buy every argument from their kid and don't remember that as a kid, you'll say anything to try and wiggle out of a jam. Some people just have no clue at all. It really makes you appreciate the ones who do-I go the extra mile for them just because of that. The "wussification" thing is a slow, but insidious creature. I meet people who have helped create the foundations of it everyday.

 

[Motokid]

My youngest just started forth grade. She's 9 years old and will turn 10 in January. This will be the first year she receives letter grades in school. So at least in my part of the world, we are not that far off from Denmark I guess...in terms of grading school work.

 

[SFG75]

My youngest just started forth grade. She's 9 years old and will turn 10 in January. This will be the first year she receives letter grades in school. So at least in my part of the world, we are not that far off from Denmark I guess...in terms of grading school work.

Let us know if irreparable psychological harm ensues from her seeing a letter grade. Do they grade in red ink? Might want to confront them on that and storm into the principal's office to raise cain over it.

 

[Motokid]

Let us know if irreparable psychological harm ensues from her seeing a letter grade. Do they grade in red ink? Might want to confront them on that and storm into the principal's office to raise cain over it.

Come to think of it...I can't remember when I've seen red ink on my children's papers, and my oldest has been getting letter grades for years....I'll have to pay attention to that when papers start coming home. They've just started school.

 

[Robert]

I forgot to ask, leckert; is Pussification a clinical term?

 

[Miss Shelf]

Come to think of it...I can't remember when I've seen red ink on my children's papers, and my oldest has been getting letter grades for years....I'll have to pay attention to that when papers start coming home. They've just started school.

One year when I was in school back in the Iron Age, teachers switched to green ink. It didn't make a difference-I grew to hate green ink along with red.

 

[leckert]

@Robert - very clinical!


Moto -

I'm really not trying to say that we should 'bully' or intimidate our children into submission.

My entire point is that children and parents are NOT equal. The opinion of a child in the family sphere should not be weighed as heavily as the parents. Our job as the parent is to demonstrate good decision making skills, and provide an environment where there are expectations for behavior. How misbehavior is dealt with effectively will be different for every child. Parents need to be in tune enough to recognize that and respond accordingly.

I don't think that spanking a child produces violent adults in and of itself. If that were the case, our parents' and grandparents' generations would have been nothing but raging killers. I don't subscribe to the "my parents did it, so it must be okay" philosophy, but neither do I think that everything they did was inherently wrong.

I think children should be treated like adults when they are old enough (biologically and emotionally) to handle the responsibility that comes with adulthood. Not before.

Of course they are little people. But they are not independently functioning members of society. I don't believe that the nuclear family should be a democracy. That would be letting the inmates run the asylum. Parents need to set limits and stick to them.

I am concerned that society seems to be more concerned with producing "little einsteins" than with creating a nurturing, loving, warm-and-fuzzy family unit. The precoscious (sp?) child who will interrupt adults does not recognize the boundries between adults and children is not "cute" or "adorable", but rude and undisciplined.

 

[leckert]

Just curious - but how many people here, who did get spanked on the odd occasion, feared their parents?

I feared my father. Wasn't really the "spanking" though.

 

[Motokid]

leckert....re: post 51

right on brotha....

but you needed a counter-point, and I decided to be it....

 

[leckert]

leckert....re: post 51

right on brotha....

but you needed a counter-point, and I decided to be it....

Jane, you ignorant slut!

Thanks, dude. I thought I could count on you to play devil's advocate!

 

[novella]

My entire point is that children and parents are NOT equal. The opinion of a child in the family sphere should not be weighed as heavily as the parents.

I don't think that spanking a child produces violent adults in and of itself. If that were the case, our parents' and grandparents' generations would have been nothing but raging killers. I don't subscribe to the "my parents did it, so it must be okay" philosophy, but neither do I think that everything they did was inherently wrong.


.

Yeah, I always tell my kid that a family is not a democracy, it's a benign dictatorship.

But as to spanking, apparently the effectiveness of spanking (light butt patting, not smacking), wears off around age 5. Up until that point, a child will see a spanking as an embarrassing deterrent, but after that a kid will not 'learn' anything from spanking and it becomes ineffective as a deterrent and usually increases resentment and hostility in a family. This is not just *my* idea, but psychological accepted knowledge.

If you want your child to actually learn something, it's better to use other forms of manipulation, e.g., withdrawing a privilege, assigning a task, and talking about why you are choosing that particular form of punishment. Physically threatening an adolescent is a very bad idea.

 

[leckert]

Yeah, I always tell my kid that a family is not a democracy, it's a benign dictatorship.

But as to spanking, apparently the effectiveness of spanking (light butt patting, not smacking), wears off around age 5. Up until that point, a child will see a spanking as an embarrassing deterrent, but after that a kid will not 'learn' anything from spanking and it becomes ineffective as a deterrent and usually increases resentment and hostility in a family. This is not just *my* idea, but psychological accepted knowledge.

If you want your child to actually learn something, it's better to use other forms of manipulation, e.g., withdrawing a privilege, assigning a task, and talking about why you are choosing that particular form of punishment. Physically threatening an adolescent is a very bad idea.

possibly contrary to what some may think of my posts here, I haven't spanked my daughter in probably three years (she's ten). Once she was old enough to understand reason, and to have cool stuff that could be taken away, spanking became pointless. I also have to be careful with spankings, because it is very easy to use it to vent anger as opposed to correcting a child. I really think this is where we get into trouble. (I have never hit my daughter with anything other than my hand, and relatively lightly on the butt.)

with all of this said, I think that the most important thing to understand, and to CONSCIOUSLY THINK ABOUT while punishing our children, is that is is something we are doing for them, not to them, and it has nothing to do with our level of anger or frustration. It has to do with producing responsible, productive members of society.

PLEASE don't punish children out of anger!

Please.

 

[Jemima Aslana]

Well said, leckert, well said.

I think my parents stopped using a smack on the bottom as correctional measures around the time I was 5 or 6 - that would fit with me not remembering many details of the occasions where I was the one being smacked - I remember more about my younger brother getting a smack or three.

I'm generally all for making the punishment fit the transgression. So if a kid who is old enough to tell the time doesn't return home for dinnertime because he was playing soccer - then obviously he won't be seeing his soccer ball or playing soccer with his friends for a period of time that will match the delay he caused.

No reason for smacking there.

Generally, I'm not against smacking kids when it's necessary, but as with any other situation I also believe one should consider and possibly try as many other options as possible before resorting to violence.

 

[Miss Shelf]

I also stopped getting spanked when I was maybe 7, to be fair I was a bit of a brat. What motivated me to behave was the desire to gain my parents' approval. My father never spanked me-he was afraid he didn't know his own strength. But I really didn't want to disappoint him-just a disappointed look from him could make me cry. My family wasn't perfect by any means, but I knew I was loved-even when my brother beat me up.

 

[leckert]

Well said, leckert, well said.

I think my parents stopped using a smack on the bottom as correctional measures around the time I was 5 or 6 - that would fit with me not remembering many details of the occasions where I was the one being smacked - I remember more about my younger brother getting a smack or three.

I'm generally all for making the punishment fit the transgression. So if a kid who is old enough to tell the time doesn't return home for dinnertime because he was playing soccer - then obviously he won't be seeing his soccer ball or playing soccer with his friends for a period of time that will match the delay he caused.

No reason for smacking there.

Generally, I'm not against smacking kids when it's necessary, but as with any other situation I also believe one should consider and possibly try as many other options as possible before resorting to violence.

Donkey Shins, Jemima.

Punishing out of anger can quickly escalate into a violent attack; most notably when alcohol is involved.

 

[novella]

with all of this said, I think that the most important thing to understand, and to CONSCIOUSLY THINK ABOUT while punishing our children, is that is is something we are doing for them, not to them, and it has nothing to do with our level of anger or frustration. It has to do with producing responsible, productive members of society.

.

There is always a way to correct behavior without harming a kid. Humiliating a kid on a regular basis is very damaging, and spanking, even lightly is a form of humiliation.

Apparently kids who get spanked throughout childhood:

suffer from depression
earn lower wages as adults
learn that hitting is a solution
learn that physical intimidation is power
learn to hide bad behavior rather than correct it
are prone to drug and alcohol abuse and antisocial behavior

This applies equally to 'nonabusive' spanking, because even if you don't physically hurt the kid, you are not providing an alternative 'correct' behavior, you are just humiliating, embarrassing, and psychologically asserting your power over the kid.