American Beef

[Robert]

Well, it's only a matter of time before this thread gets closed, but I'd like to make a few quick points before it does.


The Kurds were being 'slowly wiped out' before the first Gulf War and the subsequent imposition of the 'no fly zone' by America and Britain in Northern & Southern Iraq. Your remaining points are fair enough, and could be used to argue on behalf of a moral intervention.


Sorry, but where is the evidence to back this up. Your use of 'additional' suggests Saddam already possessed WMD in 2003. So ok, where are they?

This is the real difference between us I feel. Again there is no evidence to back up what you are saying, indeed even the Bush Administration has admitted no 9/11 link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3118262.stm
and so has the 9/11 commission:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3812351.stm
Many people would argue the exact opposite of what you claim. That a new terrorist training ground has been created, and there is far more evidence to back that up; just watch the nightly news bulletins.

Regards,

K-S

No evidence? Terrorist training camps in Iraq were a fact of life. You need to read back a little further.

Also, there is plenty of evidence to support Iraq’s attempt to develop WMD. The part that isn’t proven is whether they actually had them at the time the war started. Many believe, as I do, that they (Iraq) had too much warning before the war, and the proof went across the border in some of the convoys that left the country just before Iraq.

There is no evidence to prove additional training grounds have been created in Iraq. Possibly some to support the insurgents, but that’s the extent of it. Don't forget too that with Iraq falling, a major source of funding was cut.

 

[Robert]

Indeed they could, but they have been used with the wrong tar on the terrorist brush.




There's a difference between corrupt countries which receive aid (i.e. Zimbabwe) and those countries which are just so poor that thhey need aid to help them rebuild (i.e. Niger) - you are conveniently grouping them as "corrupt countries" when it is so much more complicated than that.

Stewart, most of those countries we poor billions of dollars in are run by thugs.

By the way, many people in this country believe the UN is corrupt and needs to be disbanded because they have lost site of their mission and are completely useless. The belief is that millions of dollars are poured into the UN, with no measurable results. How do people feel about the UN in your neck of the woods?

 

[Motokid]

My favorite cut of Beef is the Prime Rib.

I prefer it to be cooked "medium" so that it's still slightly "pinkish" on the inside, but not red. I don't like them one breath away from moo-ing. Served with a baked potato and sour-cream the Prime Rib is fo' sho' my favorite cut of beef.

 

[Robert]

My favorite cut of Beef is the Prime Rib.

I prefer it to be cooked "medium" so that it's still slightly "pinkish" on the inside, but not red. I don't like them one breath away from moo-ing. Served with a baked potato and sour-cream the Prime Rib is fo' sho' my favorite cut of beef.

That sounds good to me. I'll bring the wine. What time is dinner?

 

[Stewart]

Stewart, most of those countries we poor billions of dollars in are run by thugs.

But not all.

many people in this country believe the UN is corrupt and needs to be disbanded because they have lost site of their mission and are completely useless.

Yes, but many people in that country are shit-kicking, gun-toting lunatics proudly waving their Republican credentials ( ) and believe that the UN are useless because the media there (for the most part) is politically motivated and happy to take a bit (i.e. lots) of money here and there in order to publicise the government's stance. The UN voted against the US (and the UK's) stance to attack a country without any evidence that it had done anything wrong (fair enough the dictator running it was a madman, and the US had to remove any trace of their friendship from years before) in an international respect. Rather than accept the UN's decision (which is what the millions paid to it went for) the US just says **** you, you're crap to the UN and goes about its illegal business; UK and a few other countries to follow. You can't take membership and then shit on the terms and conditions by going gung-ho whenever it suits - accept the decision by your national peers and sit down.

The belief is that millions of dollars are poured into the UN, with no measurable results.

Bosnia? Rwanda? East Timor?

How do people feel about the UN in your neck of the woods?

We had millions on the streets protesting about our nation going against the UN. Where were your protests?

 

[Robert]

We get protests against the UN in New York. Nothing major as far as I know.

 

[Motokid]

How do people feel about meatloaf? To me, I'd just assume have a hamburger if I'm gonna have ground beef. Although a cold meatloaf sandwich the next day is a good thing to have...

 

[Stewart]

We get protests against the UN in New York. Nothing major as far as I know.

Against? Idiots!

 

[Robert]

Against? Idiots!

Protests against the UN in general, some of their decisions, and against the corruption. From what I’ve read, many Americans would be much happier if we just pulled out.

 

[Robert]

How do people feel about meatloaf? To me, I'd just assume have a hamburger if I'm gonna have ground beef. Although a cold meatloaf sandwich the next day is a good thing to have...

Meatloaf is alright, but give me a hamburger any day. Black Angus if you have it.

 

[Stewart]

Protests against the UN in general, some of their decisions, and against the corruption.

The UN is corrupt? I know the US didn't like the appointment of Syria to the council a few years back but it is hardly corrupt - it finally gave a Middle Eastern country a chance to represent itself in the highest table of the council. It's a temporary role whereas the US has its permanent seat at the council's table.

From what I’ve read, many Americans would be much happier if we just pulled out.

Do they give personal reasons for their opinions rather than just repeat what they hear on television?

 

[Motokid]

Meatloaf is alright, but give me a hamburger any day. Black Angus if you have it.

Grilled too...now do you prefer a propane gas grill or the more traditional charcoal? I hear there's a growing clan of traditionalists that despise the propane.

I like the propane grill. Turn it on, turn it off....no lighter fluid taste either...

 

[Stewart]

Charcoal, most definitely. You get that nice, extra smoked taste to the meat.

 

[novella]

Protests against the UN in general, some of their decisions, and against the corruption. From what I’ve read, many Americans would be much happier if we just pulled out.

Just as a matter of fact, there are frequent, small demonstrations (not protests), held at a distance from the UN but directed toward the UN, primarily asking for recognition, aid, or dealing with a particular issue on non-US soil. Most of these demonstrations are NOT held by US citizens but by foreign nationals (e.g., Palestinians or Chinese). They are a recognition of the UN's role, not an abnegation of it.

Further, there were many protests across the US when the US contravened the UN's position on Iraq.

Also Robert, I think you are confusing the terrorist training camps in Afghanistan with Iraq. There weren't any in Iraq, though Saddam certainly may have provided support to those in Afghanistan and elsewhere.

The ultimate solution (I give it 5 years) in Iraq will probably be to install a ruthless dictator in order to quell tribal warring and anti-US terrorism. Gee, doesn't that sound familiar?

 

[Motokid]

Charcoal, most definitely. You get that nice, extra smoked taste to the meat.

I use charcoal about once a year when on vacation. It is a unique taste...but for simplicity sake, and quickness I use gas at home for all grilling. Thinking about getting a smoker unit. Probably electric...and then woodchips can be added for the flavoring you would get from using real charcoal and wood.

 

[Kenny Shovel]

No evidence? Terrorist training camps in Iraq were a fact of life. You need to read back a little further.

I’m going to assume here you mean pre-invasion/liberation by ‘read back a little further’? My apologies if I’m misinterpreting.
You’re right that evidence was presented regarding ‘terrorist training camps’ in the form of testimony from a former Iraqi Army officer and collated by anti-Saddam groups like the Iraqi National Congress. Unfortunately these are the same sources most vocal in the claim that he also had WMDs, and may not now be regarded by everyone to be the most reliable of witnesses. There was always going to be an element of doubt with evidence of this nature, due to the source having something to gain from it, overthrow of Saddam etc.
However the past two years have provided the perfect opportunity to prove or disprove the veracity of those claims. So I ask again, given two years of investigation, where is the evidence that Iraq was supporting terrorism? By proof I’m thinking of investigative journalism from a respected news outlet, government or NGO report; I’m less interested in opinion pieces on web-sites with an axe to grind (from either point of view).
BTW, I’m not saying I’m right, prove me wrong; if solid evidence is out there I’d be genuinely interested in it, and why it isn’t plastered all over the news.

Also, there is plenty of evidence to support Iraq’s attempt to develop WMD.

There was evidence brought forward to support that suggestion pre-war; to my knowledge this evidence has been subsequently disproved. Examples that most readily spring to my mind being the UK governments ‘dodgy dossier’ which included a plagiarised academic thesis
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,890916,00.html
and the evidence that Colin Powell presented to the UN security council just prior to the war which the man himself admitted "appeared not to be ... that solid."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18890-2004Sep13.html
If there is other evidence, fine, point me in the right direction.

The part that isn’t proven is whether they actually had them at the time the war started. Many believe, as I do, that they (Iraq) had too much warning before the war, and the proof went across the border in some of the convoys that left the country just before Iraq.

Unfortunately not everyone is of that view, Hans Blix and David Kay (head of the Iraq Survey Group):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3778987.stm
being just two, and I would personally suggest they are in a better position to judge than most.

There is no evidence to prove additional training grounds have been created in Iraq. Possibly some to support the insurgents, but that’s the extent of it. Don't forget too that with Iraq falling, a major source of funding was cut.

Iraq itself is the training ground, with hands-on training in suicide bombing and other terrorist tactics being provided on a daily basis, something which surely we can all agree was not previously the case.

Regards,

K-S

 

[Motokid]

Beef Jerky is a wonderful treat....I may have to make some here soon...been a while since I've done that....

 

[jenn]

Beef Jerky is a wonderful treat....I may have to make some here soon...been a while since I've done that....

your attempts at political correctness are admirable, and funny.

i like meatloaf with potato scallop. and oh yeah, beef jerky. salty goodness.

 

[Motokid]

Hot Roast-Beef sandwich with plenty au jous for dippin'.....horseradish (spelling) ....oh goddamn....I am so freakin' hungry.....side order of onion rings...


thanx jenn...I live to make you smile...

 

[leckert]

I still don't see what Iraq had to do with terrorism. It only became privy to such a phenomenon when our respective governments "liberated" it. Anyhow, your nation made these terrorists and despots and usually for petty reasons. You going to argue that too?

Saying that we created the terrorists and despots is like saying Yin caused Yeng. It suggests that we should modify our lifestyle and our culture because a small group of radical extremists don't agree with it.

I will argue that point. When a bank gets robbed, you don't blame the bank for having money in it.

I also think that Saddam Huesein (sp?) violated multiple UN Injunctions, and that our action against him was justified for that alone. The faulty data given Bush was a good "public" reason. The world is safer without Saddam.