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contructive criticism wanted - critique me

Motokid

Motokid

New Member
When people post stuff in the writers showcase area asking for comments and contructive criticisms on their writings what is it exactly that you think they want from this?

To borrow from American Idol, do you think it's best to give them the Simon Cowell critique, or the Paula Abdul critique? Do they really want to hear the honest truth about your thoughts, or are they merely looking for praise and the obligitory "I like it" type comments?

When there's a very specific request for comments, are you being cruel, or mean, or ignorant if you actually tell the person what you like, and don't like?

Or should we all live by the style of "if you can't say something nice don't say anything at all"?
 
To put it bluntly, if they want to be told they are the greatest then they should end each request with Sycophants need only reply.

I will give it to them straight. I don't see the point in being dishonest. If it's crap then it's crap but here's how to develop it.
 
Stewart said:
To put it bluntly, if they want to be told they are the greatest then they should end each request with Sycophants need only reply.

.
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where is that thread again, because i only want smoke blown up my ass. who wants to hear bad things?
 
Motokid said:
Or should we all live by the style of "if you can't say something nice don't say anything at all"?
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I feel that if you are going to post some work in the Writer's Showcase and ask people for their views then you should be ready for some critisism. What I don't think is right is to critisise without offering help on how to improve the work.

I rarely write nowadays but used to a fair amount, however I wrote purely for myself so wouldn't want to have my work displayed on an open forum. For writers that are trying to get their work published, I think that constructive critisism is very useful.
 
Constructive criticism is just that, constructive. If all you are going to do is tear someone down, keep your yap shut. Tell them something nice, like what is good about what they've done, then without being an ass, tell them what they need to work on. You can tell the truth without being ugly about it.

Opening yourself up to criticism is hard enough without someone making you feel like a total piece of crap.
 
i think if you ask for opinions, there should be people out there nice enough to give you the truth and not some shiny bullshit. if they don't like it, great, i like that better than if people give me the typical it-is-good-i-like-it shit. If you want praise go to your mama or your friends.
 
Start with something positive, then blast 'em.

Er, no, wait. Start with something positive, then give them advice on what needs improving. Words that are bitter or smarmy do nothing but make the commenter feel superior.

On the other hand, it is up to the writer to reply to critiques with appreciation, and some sign that he or she is going to consider the advice. Without that, no one should comment on that person's work again.
 
As a professional writer and editor who partcipated in several writing workshops years ago, I believe there are certain rules and courtesies one should observe when critiquing someone's writing.

First, it shouldn't be about whether you 'like' the work or not. If you really don't like it, you should refrain from commenting on the piece. There's no reason at all to just tear someone down because your tastes run in a different direction.

Second, try to understand that the writer is doing something tough just asking for a critique. They mostly want help in achieving the goal of creating something interesting and worthwhile. Critique is not about the critic or the writer, but about the work. What comments can you offer that might help the writer improve the work.

Also, each piece of writing is a unique vision. It's pointless to say, "this book should be more like Dashiel Hammet" or something along those lines.

If you can't do these things in a helpful, courteous way, maybe you should refrain from commenting.

I don't generally like to pussyfoot around. I give honest critiques that I think might be helpful. Sometimes they are positive, sometimes they point out a major flaw. If a writer can't be open to that, they shouldn't ask for feedback and probably will never get published.

Writers should also realize that people NEVER want to read pieces full of misspellings, glaring grammatical errors, and cliches. They have to be their own best critics first, before they ask others to read their stuff. It's only fair.
 
Well, I've been meaning to say something like this.

Motokid, you're a very interesting conversationalist, but. . . you have an odour. I think it's your breath, could be your pits though.

On the constructive side, they make lots of products for that sort of thing and they're available at any drugstore.

You could also use a haircut and some nose hair trimming lol.
 
For writing I think a critique should be on grammar, punctuation, spelling, and whether the content is consistent and tells a story. I don't think people should comment on their own subjective likes and dislikes - "I think it would be better if your vampire had black hair and wore a black cape with red lining".

I think when giving a critique one should always start with what could be improved and followed up with what you liked. Being honest does not mean you have to be cold, snide, or insulting. It's very easy to point out things that could be improved upon in a mature, respectful, and civil manner.

I think anyone asking for a critique should expect and accept honest critiques, though I know that it's sometimes hard when someone does not feel your labour of love is as good as you had hoped. Sometimes it's best to read the critique and step back for a while before commenting. The rule is, on many critique forums, is whether you agree or not to just thank the person and move on. I don't see anything dangerous or harmful in asking a person to elaborate though.
 
Do your comments and the style of your comments change depending on whether the person is 14 years old, or 41 years old?

How would it effect your comments if the person is just writting creatively, and for the fun of it, verses seriously thinking about becoming a professional writter?

Does having more intimate knowledge of the author help with your critique?
Does knowing exactly what they want from the critique make things easier for you when providing feedback?

Or would you prefer to paint your comments with the broadest brush available?

edit: oh, and Slacker...your right...I do stink....need a bath after all that yard work. :D
 
When people post stuff in the general chat asking for comments on a somewhat controversial post they wrote on the forum what is it exactly that you think they want from this?
 
Motokid, you're asking some good questions.

I just don't see a point in critiquing a 14-year-old's work. They have too much to learn. I wish schools did a better job of teaching it to them.

I do critique the writing of adults, however. If fact, it's my job. Since people pay me for my editing, I assume they have publication as a goal. I try to help them craft a marketable piece as well as a readable one.

If I know the person, and have ongoing contact with them, I try to include general lessons in my critiques that can be used beyond the piece at hand. I try to help the person grow in his or her writing over time. If it's a one-shot contract, however, I focus on the one piece, and am very detailed.

I prefer that writers not limit my critiquing by telling me what they want from a critique; but if they present a list of question or goals, I will address them. I might then say, "I would like to add, however..."

I start my critiques with broad comments that apply to the whole piece, then go line-by-line.

Hope that helps.

Cheers,
Mari
 
"When people post stuff in the general chat asking for comments on a somewhat controversial post they wrote on the forum what is it exactly that you think they want from this?"

Not sure if this is directed specifically at me, or exactly what your asking.

I'm hoping to find out what's the best tact to take when asked for an opinion on something as personal as a piece of writing. To me, writing a story is very personal, and too much outside intervention can take some of that personality away from the overall piece. Turn it into a group work and not an individual work. Outside of grammer and spelling I wonder how much input should be given on the actual story, and how much should be changed based on that input.
 
Motokid said:
To me, writing a story is very personal, and too much outside intervention can take some of that personality away from the overall piece. Turn it into a group work and not an individual work.
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Every published piece is edited. A writer hands a story to an editor knowing that the editor will put his or her stamp on it. Writers should choose which publications to send their work to with that in mind. They should choose publications with a style of editing that agrees with their sensibilities (or one that is so well edited, it will improve their story in ways the writers couldn't have predicted).

You are right that most writing is personal; but then, why submit it for critique? Writing for an audience is a calculated business. At some point, writing must cross the line from personal to other-oriented--writing that is not for the writer, but for the reader.

One solution is to offer critiques that point out problems and provide lessons on how to write well, but that do not offer rewritten versions of the piece. If we leave it to the writer to apply the advice, it will still have his or her personality in it.
 
"writing that is not for the writer, but for the reader."

Isn't that a very dangerous thing to do? Write for the reader?
 
Motokid said:
Do your comments and the style of your comments change depending on whether the person is 14 years old, or 41 years old?

How would it effect your comments if the person is just writting creatively, and for the fun of it, verses seriously thinking about becoming a professional writter?

Does having more intimate knowledge of the author help with your critique?
Does knowing exactly what they want from the critique make things easier for you when providing feedback?

Or would you prefer to paint your comments with the broadest brush available?

edit: oh, and Slacker...your right...I do stink....need a bath after all that yard work. :D
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I critique consistently regardless of age and ambition. If someone asks about something specific I will try to give that "something" special focus. I will distinguish between someone more skilled and someone just starting out - someone skilled shouldn't need things explained to the same amount of detail, someone new might need a bit more guidance when it comes to improving their writing. If you ask for a critique I assume you want to be a good writer, regardless of whether you have a desire to be published - you'll get the same critique.
 
I certainly don't ask the age of the person posting. That's no indication of writing skill or creativity, since I could write nearly as well at 14 as 44.

I agree with both Mari and Novella. The goal of most writers who are seeking a critique is publication, which carries with it a lot of sub-goals of which the beginning writer might not be aware (one of which is determining your editor's voice, because yes -- it will be stamped on your work.)

So, I always approach a critique with that main goal in mind, and try to teach the sub-goals along the way. Small lessons like dialogue tags and point of view go a long way toward helping the writer perfect their craft. But if that means that I have to tell a writer that they're not doing as well as they hoped, then that's the way it is. It would be both unfair and cruel to the writer to lie and say it's fine, or even worse -- to ignore an offering and leave them forever wondering.

But critiquing doesn't have to degrade into snipes and insults. It's just as easy to teach as to tear apart. :)

Cathy
 
I'm hoping for publication someday, but I don't think I'll ever have the time to develop my skills enough for that. It's a one-book-in-everyone kinda thing, and I'd like to see that happen before I travel to the Gray Havens.

When I critique, I think I try to give Simon "it sucks" comments but still manage to lean towards Paula-ish "it's not too bad but can be better" comments. But when I want to be critiqued, I find that only the Simon-type comments are the ones really worth listening to. Unless of course, it's a vindictive comment for the sake of being vindictive.

ds
 
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