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Disturbing trend.

W

Wabbit

New Member
Hi all :)

For some time now, I have been noticing, what i think, is a disturbing trend. Now, I don't know how many of you are going to agree with me on this one. I think it is probably a kinda controversial viewpoint.

OK, I better explain myself, huh????

OK, deep breath, here goes. The fantasy genre sucks. OK, there, I said it! Well, let me clarify and expand upon that statement before somebody tries to ties me to an enraged moose! I LOVE fantasy! But the genre itself has been ruined in my opinion. Why? one word, trilogies.

The fantasy market has been reduced to an endless river of mindless, soulless and derivative trilogies. I mean, its OK to have a trilogy but does EVERY SINGLE DAMN fantasy story HAVE to come in 3 books, or more! That's just crazy.

It's all driven by money. If you can get somebody to buy 3 books over one book then you are going to make one hell of a lot more money! The fantasy market, driven by money has been utterly ruined. There is absolutely no choice in the genre.

The fantasy masterworks series has been a real breath of fresh air though the stale halls of modern fantasy. With this series we have been treated to books that are A) original, B) varied and C) a story contained in only one novel! WHAT? can it be possible! GASP!!!! I don't MIND reading a trilogy. in fact, I have read some great trilogies in my time. But I want CHOICE. I don't want every damn fantasy work to be a trilogy and a carbon copy of the other one.

Told you it was going to be controversial, didn't I?

Now that I have explained myself. I will explain what I see as a disturbing trend: The rise of the SF trilogy. OK, I LOVED the night dawn trilogy. The SF trilogy used to be such a rare thing but now I see it more and more. SF used to be a lot better quality than fantasy. Not because the genre is inherently better but just because it was not so market driven. My fear is that SF is going to go the same way as fantasy and in 5 years time we will only get space opera trilogies. Sure, I love em. I love action and adventure as much as the next person but I want CHOICE. I fear for intelligent ideas driven SF. I fear SF will go the same way as fantasy.

AHEM. wow, huh?

So what do you all think?

Best Regards
SillyWabbit
 
I can understand your concern. I particularly dislike books that don't conclude in one volume. I don't mind reading series, but I like each book to stand alone. I don't like cliff hangers where I have to wait for years to find out what happened next.

One thing though - sometimes I suppose that authors do a trilogy for the money. But other times it's because they love the world and the characters they have created. They want to explore more of both. I suppose that's a different thing than a true trilogy.

As for original ideas - there aren't any. There are only so many plots in this world. It's what the author does with the plots that make them different. And even though authors try hard, darned hard, to come up with something original, someone, someplace, will no doubt be writing the same danged thing, thinking they are original as heck. *see, no swear words* ;)
 
Originally posted by Jenna
I can understand your concern. I particularly dislike books that don't conclude in one volume. I don't mind reading series, but I like each book to stand alone. I don't like cliff hangers where I have to wait for years to find out what happened next.

One thing though - sometimes I suppose that authors do a trilogy for the money. But other times it's because they love the world and the characters they have created. They want to explore more of both. I suppose that's a different thing than a true trilogy.

As for original ideas - there aren't any. There are only so many plots in this world. It's what the author does with the plots that make them different. And even though authors try hard, darned hard, to come up with something original, someone, someplace, will no doubt be writing the same danged thing, thinking they are original as heck. *see, no swear words* ;)
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Hi Sorry, I can't agree with you on this one :)


Maybe, I am cynical but I think most authors write for the money. Maybe I am totally wrong on this. I have nothing to back it up with :) Sure, there are writers out there that do it for the love of the thing. Those writers are normally the ones that ARE original. Also, I think, often it is out of the authors hands. The publishers, im sure, put on a lot of presure to make a trilogy.

As for the second point, again, sorry to disagree :)

Sure, it's difficult to be original and when it comes down to it there are only, what, 7 plots in the whole world? :)

BUT, you CAN be original. The market is controlled by the money men and publishers. Again, don't think the authors have a lot say in this. The publishers want another lord of the rings. IF you offer them something that is totally original you will have a VERY hard time selling it to them. They will look at it and think of their bottom line. Same thing with movies today. Everybody plays it safe, they are in it for the money even if the authors are in it for the love. The publishers hold the purse strings and they are a very conservative and unimaginative bunch :)

I just cant agree with you. OK, off the top of my head

you want original?

IDEAS:

The world is a desert. A man with ocean trapped in his eyes. If you listen to him breath you can hear the distant roar of the sea. He roams the land searching... The order of the sun try to stop him. For when he reaches a certain place and cries the worlds pain their power will be gone

The world of darkness exists with the world of light. Creatures of the dark live in eternal night: vampires, werewolfs, dragons and so on. Creatures of the light, live in the light world. Soon the great conjunction will take place... and the worlds will merge, what will happen?

Tarvis Mahon, son of the greatest pirates in all the land sets sail on a voyage from the king to sail to the edge of the world where he meets God who instructs him to return to the island of the king and become his servant with all the powers of God himself. he returns and is made God on earth. What does he do with his power? Will he use it for good or ill?

There, thats 3 ideas without even thinking and when I am pressed for time :)

Best Regards
SillyWabbit
 
Excellent thread starter My Dear Wabbit.
It's been a few years since I've picked up a fantasy book. It's not because of the genre, I love it. It's due to the fact that I have other interests as well & don't want to spend the time & efforts on a trilogy or more. I to want that CHOICE to read just one book without the fear of it growing and growing and growing. There are many popular authors that I've heard so many good things about but I don't want to get hooked in to buying 10 books just to quench my thirst. Over all SW I couldn't agree with you more!

Bill
 
I agree with SillyWabbit...it seems as if everyone must write a trilogy. I'm not sure why...if its for money, if they care about their characters, or its just become a fantasy standard. I'm sure money plays in to some degree for the more major authors who make their money by selling books. They are most likely writers because they did love writing, but once you make something your living, you have to ensure that the next paycheck will be coming in. What better what, than write a series of books? That way, you are ensuring yourself at least a few years of success.

I hope that Science fiction doesn't go the same way. In a way, it seems that sci-fi presents more plot possibilities than fantasy, which will help to prevent repetition to some degree. But the trilogy/series may overtake the genre.

Personally, I don't like trilogies or series unless each book can stand on its own without needing the read the others. Then, I can go back later and read more of the series if I so choose, but its not necessary to go on.
 
There's some great trilogies out there - and there's some trilogies that would've made one great book if they hadn't dragged it out into 3. I am pleased that my fave (Lackey) has drifted away from the trilogy format as it was growing a bit stale.

I'm all for trilogies, as long as it suits the story, but some stories need 1 book, some need 2, some need 3, some need 10. It just depends.

Also, Robert Jordan needs to reevaluate what his story needs. But that's in another thread.

Also, I have to disagree that writers write for the money. Trust me, the money isn't worth the sort or soul-wrenching self-evaluation that writing requires. And of the small percentage that get published, there's a really small percentage that make enough to be called rich, especially in genre.

As for the plots, well there are only a handful of basic plots. What you do to make them yours is what makes the experience special.
 
I did myself think that there was no recent sf that was good ala 60s good. But then good old Martin pointed me towards Micheal Marshall Smith. He is such a breath of old air. No space operas like Banks, I like them, but not all the time, but he does real story driven sf with deep thought behind it. Hopefully you have already tried him.

Can't comment much on fantasy as I've only ever read three series'.
 
I suppose it's because Tolkien's "trilogy" is seen as so popular that fantasy authors feel they, to survive alongside his mantle (they are, of course, delusional), have to provide their stories as trilogies.

A series of books, a body of work all set within the same world but novels to themselves would be better than The Tripestone of Gutnam Part I, II, and III where one journey is prolonged over three publications and the time taken to write, proof, and publish them. Maybe that's why Pratchett is more popular than most fantasy authors...
 
There are very few authors who actually make a decent living off their writing. And they keep producing because their publishers know they can sell. A lot of times if they want to branch out to something different, they use a pen name. The publishers are the ones who like the trils because they can make more money off of them. And, face it, a lot of readers don't want the writers to stop writing about a particular world either. Supply and demand.

I'm not really that well read, but it seems that someone who was could easily find books that would either match or near match Wabbit's ideas listed above. Maybe not. If that's the case, then Wabbit needs to get busy and write those suckers, then see if he can find a publisher who is willing to take the risk and publish it.

Also, this is another reason why so many writers are going with small press - they are willing to take the chances on things a little different, a little more risky, than what NY is willing to do.
 
Me again :)

Point taken Jenna and Ashlea about authors. actually, I agree with you both that most authors don't earn a living from writing. I should say I think that the ones at the top are the ones that are doing it for the money. I just think that most of the BIG names are hacks, not ALL of them, but a lot of them. but maybe I am just a cynical old thing lol I could be wrong :) Anyway, as said before, really it's the fault of the publishers that play it safe and churn out this stuff.

Jenna, yes, small press is much better :) That goes for any media, i think, be it books, movies, art or whatever. Small and independents will publish the good and interesting stuff while the big guys will churn out the crap.

Best Regards
SillyWabbit
 
Yes, I think you are correct in that he wanted to publish LOTR as one book!

Evil publishers!!!!!! :)

Regards
Sillywabbit
 
Originally posted by SillyWabbit
Point taken Jenna and Ashlea about authors. actually, I agree with you both that most authors don't earn a living from writing. I should say I think that the ones at the top are the ones that are doing it for the money. I just think that most of the BIG names are hacks, not ALL of them, but a lot of them. but maybe I am just a cynical old thing lol I could be wrong :) Anyway, as said before, really it's the fault of the publishers that play it safe and churn out this stuff.
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That was also my opinion. writers that actually make it to the top of the list, once they're there, often end up writing for money. Obviously, you wouldn't start writing if you didn't love it, as its a time-consuming task that takes much dedication.
 
i dont think we should make generalised statements like "most writers write for money" or even the contrary. we are in no position to declare whether any author writes out of interest or for money. some books do look like they have just been extended for more earnings but it might be possible that he just did a bad job of writing in this case?

as for original ideas how can we say that a particular story is original? with such a vast stock of books in this world and in so many languages we have no way of tracking the originality of books. maybe we have praised books to be original only because we have failed to recognise the source which they have been lifted from or even which they resemble ACCIDENTLY. i think this is a very debatable issue on which we cannot form a consensus
 
Originally posted by piedro
as for original ideas how can we say that a particular story is original? with such a vast stock of books in this world and in so many languages we have no way of tracking the originality of books. maybe we have praised books to be original only because we have failed to recognise the source which they have been lifted from or even which they resemble ACCIDENTLY. i think this is a very debatable issue on which we cannot form a consensus
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That was my point about science fiction providing more plot possibilities than fantasy. With fantasy, there are only so many different stories one can come up with and they often overlap/mirror already written stories, whether the author intended it to be that way or not. I am sure that, with all these books out there, it is difficult not to be influenced in some ways by what is already present, be it conciously or subconciously. We humans learn by experience and our minds often form ideas and boundaries, which partly determine our actions while we are unaware of their existence. I'm sure this plays into one's writing to some degree, no matter how imaginative one happens to be.
 
I forget if it's 7 or 10, but that's how many basic plots there are. Most are good vs evil if you break them down. There is internal struggle and external struggle, sometimes both in the same book. I'll see if I can find the reference to plots. I have it somewhere. It's interesting
 
Yeah, its interesting!

Was it not the Greeks that said there are only 7 basic story plots? I don't remember. I once studied it for fun. It was awhile ago and now I am a bit fuzzy on the whole thing! My brain is rubbish lol Anyway, it's very interesting. I recommend to read up about Greek and Roman theatre, very intresting.

Best Regards
Sillywabbit
 
QUOTE:Originally posted by SillyWabbit

IDEAS:

The world is a desert. A man with ocean trapped in his eyes. If you listen to him breath you can hear the distant roar of the sea. He roams the land searching... The order of the sun try to stop him. For when he reaches a certain place and cries the worlds pain their power will be gone

The world of darkness exists with the world of light. Creatures of the dark live in eternal night: vampires, werewolfs, dragons and so on. Creatures of the light, live in the light world. Soon the great conjunction will take place... and the worlds will merge, what will happen?

Tarvis Mahon, son of the greatest pirates in all the land sets sail on a voyage from the king to sail to the edge of the world where he meets God who instructs him to return to the island of the king and become his servant with all the powers of God himself. he returns and is made God on earth. What does he do with his power? Will he use it for good or ill?

Now, allthough these may be orginal "stories" they are not orginal plot lines. For the first, there have been many books of the Loner against the World/Clan/Race/Peoples on an unknown planet or place.

Second one, basicaly good vs evil.

Thrid, this seems like it came strait from the bible...or even before the bible came about, ever read the Epic of Gilgamesh. Many a stories have been about questing for Goldy items grant goldy traits.

Now when jenna said that there wernt any orignal ideas anymore i think she ment this. Although they may be orignal ideas you are just retelling the same plot/idea a different way.

Now as for trilogies i believe that they really are just to make money, but so is releasing only one book. The only reason you get published is to make money. If it wasnt for the money you could just give away copies of your work for free
 
Very intersting subject I must say.

Now, I can understand the hatred for unnecessary Multi-Volumes (must not be trilogies must they?) that lead the reader to believe there is only money to be gained. Then again, as was mentioned with LOTR: WHO decides the publishing format? Iwould think more often than not it'S the publisher that decides to hack a manuscript of 1000 Pages into thre 330 page-books to make more money. Which author who is so happy to be published at all will turn away from that?
Also the "endless" series such as Robert Jordans Wheel of time (IS it going to end???) or George RR Martin (is he going to finish that story or is he going to die before) make me angry as a consumer (haven't read either so I don't know whether I will like them).

Then: Where is the criteria of an UNNECESSARY multi-volume book? Is it a number of pages is it what you think makes for a boring read? What?

I for my part are still relatively new to reading Fantasy and thus probably have a lot of discoveris to make that you others have already made, but I have to admit, I do specifically search for multi-volume stories, simply because I like stories with "meat" on the basic bones of one of those seven plots.

If a story is entertaining and draws me in (like Otherland, Farseer Trilogy, Dragonbone Chair...) I don't mind waiting for the next volume (well, I DO mind because I am one impatient person ;)). If the story does not captivate me, I won't buy a second volume...

That said I don't mind or diss one volume stories. I just found that it's oftentimes a very disappointing read, when a big story is set up, makes you interested in the characters and dropps off leaving you unsatisfied after 300 pages.

Jan
 
Originally posted by SillyWabbit
Told you it was going to be controversial, didn't I?
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Nope. Controversial is saying that all fantasy is worthless and crap. Controversial is saying that literature can survive without the fantasy genre. :D
 
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