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Europe and asia

dsj

New Member
This post is about the medieval and renaissance europeans were stronger than the asians in terms of military power.

First, the european troops were better. Most of this is due of the better equipment. They had better armour than the asians. The whole equipment standard is higher; all of their soldiers except some pesant levies wore armour. Their soldiers all had at least chain mail armour and usually more which is what the asians could not compare to. The militia man which is what a large part of their army is made up of were very eliete in these armour. Europe also had man at arms. These fighters were the most eliete troops in the world due to their amour.

Second, the europeans had better bows. Their crossbows and arblests were very powerful compared to the asian composite bows(which not all of them had large amounts of). They could pierce plate armour where the composite bows only can pierce chain mail at very close ranges. The longbows used by the english were even more deadly.

The european siege technology was unrivaled. They have put great importance on it since the roman days. After centuries of development through materialistic ways, it reached a very amazing, effective, advanced state.

The europeans also had superior naval technology and skills. They have been fighting on the sea and gaining much experience and development since the ancient spartan days. The asians had a very late start. The europeans had the doctrine and idea of exploration, discovery, expansion ect... Which the asians. One example was the chinese. Their massive fleets discribed in their literature works like the jin and song dynasties were restricted to fighting on rivers and rarely, close sea straits. They did not have large amounts of trade warfare, patrol on seas like the europeans on the mediterrian sea. I'm chinese and know a lot about the chinese history and culture.
 
dsj said:
This post is about the medieval and renaissance europeans were stronger than the asians in terms of military power.

Okay while we have Medieval and Renaissance Europeans are we also assuming Medieval and Renaissance Asians? If so, 孫子 can be ruled out.

Are we focusing on a specific race/nation from Europe and, respectively, Asia? Or are we talking about the continents as a whole?

The asians had a very late start.

I'd argue against that comment as a general point. Asia gave a hell of a lot to the world before the first Bronze Age people had vacated Anatolia and moved to - what is now- Crete.

I'm chinese and know a lot about the chinese history and culture.

Then I'm rather disheartened that you didn't weigh up the pros and cons of European and Asian military force in your post as all you have done is said: they were better for this, they were better for that. How were they better? Was the difference and strength of armour due to cultural development, mineral resources, or something else? What was the difference in navies; why was one better? And so on, and so forth.
 
i went checking the kraken post
just remember i read some days ago, they finally make the dna test to the latest giant squid, and it happens to be just a mass of whale fat in decompocition (spelling? rottening anyway).



hey they also have a mod called martin in that forum, thats creppy, reminds me of the bizarro jerry episode.
they dont happen to have a member called sr_miguel, right? ...right?? ...right????
 
Abulafia said:
Okay while we have Medieval and Renaissance Europeans are we also assuming Medieval and Renaissance Asians? If so, 孫子 can be ruled out.

Are we focusing on a specific race/nation from Europe and, respectively, Asia? Or are we talking about the continents as a whole?



I'd argue against that comment as a general point. Asia gave a hell of a lot to the world before the first Bronze Age people had vacated Anatolia and moved to - what is now- Crete.



Then I'm rather disheartened that you didn't weigh up the pros and cons of European and Asian military force in your post as all you have done is said: they were better for this, they were better for that. How were they better? Was the difference and strength of armour due to cultural development, mineral resources, or something else? What was the difference in navies; why was one better? And so on, and so forth.


Sun Zi's work was exaggerated. If you write a book about the swiss pike formations, similiar attrition wars longbow tactics you could have an even better book. The 孙子兵法 is not as useful as people thinks. there are a lot other books like 六稻, 三略, 吴子兵法 ect... that are also as useful. It was bluffed into it's state.

I'm talking about the continent as a whole. The middle east were more heavily armoured than the far east and the europeans were the most heavily armoured. By europe I meant western europe.

The ancient people migrated. That dosen't make them better at naval skills. They were ancient and did not have anything to pass on. They just traveled there. And they don't have anything to do with the arabians. The ancient greeks did a lot of traveling and fighting on the sea. That counts as experience.

How did the europeans have better armour was not what I'm discussing.

Pros and cons.

The european army was better armoured than the asians. Almost all of the european malitia men have chainmail. This was a lot better than the asians. It's not that that the asians did not want to be heavily armoured like the europeans; it's because that they could not build such large armounts of armour. They also had heavy calvaries which were the most elite troops in their army. The islamic bows have a faster firing rate than the longbows but were not as effective. Some knights in chainmail took several direct hits and kept going and eventually closed in on the islamic army which they quickly gained the upper hand. A longbow arrow would automaticlly burst the rings.
The europeans in their armour could stand against the islamic arrows. Just talking about the early middle ages dosen't truely shows the european strength. We need to get into at least the late middle ages. Since the beginning of the late middle ages, the europeans had plate armour and their large quantities of men at arms was wearing them. This kind of composite armour provides far better protection than the scaled armour of the cataphracts or islamic heavy calvaries. The western europeans now are better armoured than the most heavily armoured asians. When plate srmour came into mass use in europe, the european armour was far more superior than the asians. The europeans were more skills at sieges. Since roman times they had advanced siege engines. Constant barbarian raids and fighting between the warlords gave the europeans the experience on defensive technology which added new crucial and useful parts in siege technology.
Europe had large amounts of crossbows. Which they were able to shoot down heavily armoured opponents at far ranges.
 
dsj said:
The ancient people migrated. That dosen't make them better at naval skills. They were ancient and did not have anything to pass on.

To go off-topic for a moment, I have to disagree with the statement that ancient people have nothing to pass on. We are living, as Madonna rightly stated some years ago :D , in a material world and everything material in this world has become clouded by both science and theology which, perversely, both seek to explain materialism.

There are skills that the ancients had that have become lost to us and we would be much better for having those skills; many of which were lost in the ante-diluvian epoch. There is great thinking and wisdom (Σοθιά) that has been passed to us from Hindu, Buddhist, Hermetic, Chaldean, and Egyptian sources but, being a material world, we reject this. They tried to give us stuff; we prefer to think in terms of possessions than spirituality.

Incas knew how to time the day; Egyptians had knowledge of astronomy. How couldthey have nothing to pass on?

Anyway, slight unwarranted digression.... :rolleyes:

How did the europeans have better armour was not what I'm discussing.

The european army was better armoured than the asians. Almost all of the european malitia men have chainmail. This was a lot better than the asians. It's not that that the asians did not want to be heavily armoured like the europeans; it's because that they could not build such large armounts of armour.

Regarding the second quote: your first one doesn't warrant it. ;)
 
Abulafia said:
To go off-topic for a moment, I have to disagree with the statement that ancient people have nothing to pass on. We are living, as Madonna rightly stated some years ago :D , in a material world and everything material in this world has become clouded by both science and theology which, perversely, both seek to explain materialism.

There are skills that the ancients had that have become lost to us and we would be much better for having those skills; many of which were lost in the ante-diluvian epoch. There is great thinking and wisdom (Σοθιά) that has been passed to us from Hindu, Buddhist, Hermetic, Chaldean, and Egyptian sources but, being a material world, we reject this. They tried to give us stuff; we prefer to think in terms of possessions than spirituality.

Incas knew how to time the day; Egyptians had knowledge of astronomy. How couldthey have nothing to pass on?

Anyway, slight unwarranted digression.... :rolleyes:





Regarding the second quote: your first one doesn't warrant it. ;)


What military knowledge does traveling to crete from 2 feet away in logs generates that are worth passing on? The spartans fought with galleys on the sea which was something the chinese could not do. That is experience that was added to the culture.
 
clearly. anyway, as your best friend, it's my duty to direct you to a search engine. I feel it's less harmful and won't stroke its own ego.
 
dsj said:
What military knowledge does traveling to crete from 2 feet away in logs generates that are worth passing on? The spartans fought with galleys on the sea which was something the chinese could not do. That is experience that was added to the culture.
Actually the spartans did most of their fighting on land,sparta did not have much of a navy,if any.Athens was the big naval power at the time and between the spartan army and the athenian navy,with the help of other greek city states,they defeated the persian invading force.
 
chairmanmiaow said:
Actually the spartans did most of their fighting on land,sparta did not have much of a navy,if any.Athens was the big naval power at the time and between the spartan army and the athenian navy,with the help of other greek city states,they defeated the persian invading force.
Ok the europeans then. They were more skilled on the sea than asians.So do people agree with my point of europe being stronger?
 
since my last post didnt provoque any reaction, and for the sake of this thread, i just run a computer simulation, and the asians seems to be stronger :eek:
 
mr_michel said:
since my last post didnt provoque any reaction, and for the sake of this thread, i just run a computer simulation, and the asians seems to be stronger :eek:
This dosen't make any sense. You do not know the factors in the world so therefore the simulation can be way off.
 
dsj said:
This dosen't make any sense. You do not know the factors in the world so therefore the simulation can be way off.

what doesnt make any sense its you presuming to know what i do or dont know (if you would, it would be scarry :eek: and i would have to hunt you down :D )

anyway you need to get some sense of humor and take things less serious, otherwise you would have understand what i imply in my last post
 
mr_michel said:
what doesnt make any sense its you presuming to know what i do or dont know (if you would, it would be scarry :eek: and i would have to hunt you down :D )

anyway you need to get some sense of humor and take things less serious, otherwise you would have understand what i imply in my last post
First, what program did you use? Wargaming programms? Those are ridiculous
 
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