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Frank Herbert: Dune

Originally posted by Idun
By the way, I also didn't like the Bene Gesserit. Why? Cause they would do anything, and they try to do it, to get power.
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I don't care much for the BG either, but isn't it interesting that having a BG bride is seen as such a prize, when really, letting a BG witch marry into your family give the BG an opportunity to subvert your authority and serve their own agenda?

I suppose my emotional reaction to the way Idun feels about the Fremen is influenced by my identifying the Fremen with actual people on Earth.

I suppose that's a danger of fiction. Look at the Grapes of Wrath.

It is a story of simple folk with strong community values who are put upon by wicked land-owners. It is also a powerful work of socialist propaganda.

Although some events that occur in GOW may be very similar to events that really happened, should the reader of that novel guard himself against the novel's message.

Should you allow any work of fiction influence your beliefs, your politics?

Back to Dune, what political ideals is Herbert espousing?

Also, how is this novel affecting you? How do you react to fiction in general?

I reacted most strongly to the interpersonal politics of the book. Every character carefully measures the probable effect his words and actions will have before speaking or acting. And then there is THE VOICE of the BG. The idea that a certain manner of speaking can be used to influence others.

This points to my greatest fear about man's reality. Do we really need to constantly compete? Is there no true friendship?
 
Originally posted by HBinjection

I suppose my emotional reaction to the way Idun feels about the Fremen is influenced by my identifying the Fremen with actual people on Earth.
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Actual people on Earth can be evil, so why not criticise them, show their mistakes, disagree with their way of life? Unless you mean one particular group of people, who you admire.

Should you allow any work of fiction influence your beliefs, your politics?
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To my mind, the greatest praise that an artist may hear is: "Your work changed my life forever." That inevitably means influence. If we agree that an author's aim is to encourage his/her readers to think, to spark off long discussions, to present his/her point of view, beliefs, thoughts in the best possible way, then the result of such writing should be a change in readers' attitude, or being reassured in their opinions, if they were exactly the same. Many books are really deep, wise masterpieces, so why not use their lore? Especially if they help people, who were in the wrong, to change their life for better. Some books can even exert their positive influence not only on pariticular individuals, but on the whole societies, like Dickens' works in England. Certainly, books can be also manipulative and misleading. But I think that the advantages outweigh eventual drawbacks. It's a matter of readers' responsibility, choice, and free will, as usual.

Do we really need to constantly compete? Is there no true friendship?
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I don't think that Dune deals much with that matter. From my experience, there is. In real world, there are examples of people, who didn't care about power and money, who devoted their lives to take care of other people, their relatives or the strangers.

Getting back to Dune:
why not dislike the Bene Gesserit as well, since they cling to their beliefs as well?
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It's not a matter of clinging to beliefs. It's rather what these beliefs cause you to do.
 
Just joined the forum, 3rd post here.

Dune and the following series.

Dune jumps into a pivotal point in the course of the Galaxy. There are various factions within the known universe that are all vieing for power.

A lot of these factions can trace their roots back to Earth and the different cultures that we have today. This is what Frank Herbert used as a basis for his novels. He looked at today and projected 1000's of years into the future and made a setting for one of the all time great scifi series. Therfore it is easy to draw similarities with today (or the time the book was written). Intentional or not I do not feel Herbert was making any bold statement, he just needed a reference for the world.

The first 100-150 pages are a hard slog, you have to flip to the back all the time to find the meaning of words. However once you have mastered this you will really become engulfed by the world, the relationships, fight for survival, political intrigue.

Once you finish Dune, don't stop there, read on to Dune Messiah, Children of Dune. These go a fair way in developing the world.

Next comes God Emporer of Dune. A real slog, but worth it to get to Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse: Dune. It just gets better and better.

Sadly Frank died before writting a 7th and supposedly final book. The story is really left hanging.

Luckily a manuscript was found several years later in a Canadian bank safety deposite box.

Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson plan to complete the series by writting this book. But before this is written they have made the Prelude to Dune series and Legends of Dune (on book 2), which go into times prior to the original Dune.

Fantastic is all I can say. I have read the original series twice, and will no doubt read it again.
 
Sorry to resurrect this thread but I am so glad to have found someone saying something (anything) negative about Dune. I was beginning to think I was a freak.

I read this only a couple of months ago - and thought it was very well-written and imaginative. It was hugely indepth and conjoured up a whole different world.

In my very humble opinion though, I found it very difficult to empathise with or relate to any of the characters in the book - even Paul began to get on my nerves towards the end - he does seem to have undergone a huge character change throughout the book which someone has mentioned here.

I can also understand why so many have started this book and given up - the flicking between the appendix and the novel to work out what all the words meant was beginning to drive me mad. I tried just reading and not worrying about what anything meant but I couldn't understand what was going on. It's like learning another language.

I, for one, will not be reading the sequels. (So there :) )
 
I, for one, will not be reading the sequels. (So there )
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I am sorry to hear this.

As I said getting into it is a hard slog but you've done the hard work. Don't give up.

Official Dune site Looks like 2 new books in the series.

You might say money grabbing, but the more Dune the better IMO :D
 
Originally posted by headpodd
Sorry to resurrect this thread
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Don't be. We're here to have discussions, aren't we?;)

Maybe you then would like to say something about the Freemen tribe? We had quite a hot argument (sorry, discussion, of course:D) about them.
 
As far as the Fremen are concerned, I'm afraid I don't have anything new to add to the argument (I mean debate).

In my opinion, they were portrayed very positively, and you've got to admire the way they coped with all that adversity. They were a bit of strange bunch though, I certainly wouldn't want to meet one of them on a dark night. :eek:
 
Originally posted by headpodd
They were a bit of strange bunch though, I certainly wouldn't want to meet one of them on a dark night. :eek:
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...especially being alone in the desert.;)
 
Hmm?

Linking the 2 movies into the present (last 20 years) political climate.

A brave analogy, but simply miss-guided. If you read the book then compare it to the film and the HBO mini-series you'll notice that the mini-series is more true to the book. The Lynch film (i have not seen the extended version, I plan on getting it soon, just bought Children of Dune Region 1) was made for box office release, and therefore had to reach a wide audience. The complexities of Dune are extremely hard to translate to the screen, which is why they had this voice amplified weapon for the freemen and called it part of the wierding (spelling) way. BS.
As to whether the films reflect the state of US involvement for and against 'freedom fighters' / 'terrorists' . I think not! Just two directors different interpretations of the book, with a different brief.

Reading the book I got the feeling that Paul was always resisting the religious side of it. In-fact he tried his best to distance himself from it.

However at the end of the day I believe the book is about survival and manipulation.
House Atriedes was at war with House Harkonan. Paul used the religion that the Bene Gesserits (spelling?) started to recruit his army. In doing so to keep the army happy you have to follow through with their beliefs. Paul then manipulated the freemen but the Freeman's religious fever runs out of control (Dune Messiah) in a holy Jihad. Paul had lost control.

Enter Leto who takes over and becomes the ultimate manipultor in the universe. Ultimate power, longevity. Sounds like a god to me.

So looking at the books in this way you can say that religion was used to attain political power. God and religion have nothing to do with life they are just a tool to control the masses.

Masses = un-educated or superstitious section of the population who need religion as an escape from their lives. Just like today. OK people do have strong beliefs but the sad fact is suicide bombers or footsoldiers who fight for their god are miss-guided un-educated fools who end up being the lackeys of those in power. There are only a small percentage of people that understand this and resist (God Emporer of Dune)
 
Carlos,

You don't have to convince me that the Maoist review was BS, I just thought it was interesting to see what different readers bring to the table.

It's crazy how different people's interpretations of books can be.

The only time I really discussed books with others in any in depth fashion was in school, and there the professor would guide our reading of a book with study guides and critical essays, so that we would concentrate on one aspect or another that we might not have though about on our own.

I think the issue here is wheter literary criticism is really relevant.

I think academic criticism is just a way to use a book, by praising or condemning, to further your own politics.

Have you read The Fountainhead? That is one of the book's themes.

Back to Dune,

I think you have convinced me to read the next book in the series.

ET
 
My problem with books such as dune and lotr where an ideal world is created is that you have to leave the made up world when the books end and you are still yearning for more information about the invented world
 
The Series

Hi everyone, this is my first post. Great discussions here!

I really enjoyed the Dune series. The most interesting thing to me is the vastness of the series--if you follow the original books all the way through you are going through an incredible amount of time. Top that off with the newer prequels and the Herberts have really put some amazing detail into their universe. For me this series comes close to the Foundation series in terms of sheer magnitude.

Like others who have posted here, I had troubles getting through both Children and God Emperor of Dune, but feel that they were important bridges to the following books. The prequels are interesting in a sort of 'oh, so that's how it happened' sort of way but seem to lack something that the original novels had in the way of complexity. To me they seem more pulp-fictiony if that makes any sense.

Interesting that people discuss the Fremen. My views of them changed drastically upon reading the latest prequel. I will not say anything further as I don't want to post any spoilers. It's interesting to see what people have written about them though, I wonder if anyone else's concept of the Fremen changed after reading THe Butlerian Jihad and Rise of the Machines?
 
kasuta said:
The prequels are interesting in a sort of 'oh, so that's how it happened' sort of way but seem to lack something that the original novels had in the way of complexity. To me they seem more pulp-fictiony if that makes any sense.
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I've read the prequels and I know what you mean. They're still very good books, and they flesh out the story very well. Dune is such a long and complicated story that it's good to finally get the background to it and understand all the family feuds. The prequels remain true to the Dune universe, but they lack the depth of Herbert's original stories. In some ways this is actually a good thing. They're a lot more accessible, they make for an easier read. The original books can get very challenging at times, and while they're worth it in the end, I can see why a lot of people give up. But the writing in the prequels is much more shallow. They're more plot driven really, whereas the originals dwelt more on the politics, personal and planetary. 'Wheels within wheels as Frank Herbert would have said.

It's understandable that the prequels aren't as complex, as they only have notes to work from and the Dune universe didn't evolve in the minds of the authors. They don't have as intimate a knowledge of the characters and their motivations. That said, they've done a very good job really, though I doubt they will ever become the classics that the original books are, and I'll always like Frank's Dune best.
 
Just bought 'The Machine Crusade', I guess I'll have to buy some more shelves for my To Be Read Books. I'll drop by the Dune site later today to see how the other books are coming along.

Edit: Battle of Corrin out in August or September 2004 release

Other
In a major deal, Tor Books and Hodder & Stoughton (UK) have contracted with Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson for more DUNE novels. The deal includes:
* The two-volume "grand climax" to the DUNE chronicles, HUNTERS OF DUNE and SANDWORMS OF DUNE, based directly on the "Dune 7" outline written by Frank Herbert;

* THE ROAD TO DUNE, a compendium of never-before-published chapters from DUNE and DUNE MESSIAH, and original stories and a short novel written by Brian and Kevin.

THE ROAD TO DUNE will be published in the interim while Brian and Kevin are writing HUNTERS and SANDWORMS. As part of the contract, Tor Books has also included the first volume in the "Paul of Dune" trilogy.
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alright, a little late but someone pointed me to this thread when I started a new one with a similar topic (not quite, but he thought so :D ).

interesting what you guys all had to say and soem very deep thoughts and interpretations.
what I've read out of most of them, and this without knowing the posters mentioned it themselves, I can see few read further than the third book, and they're definitely missing out. as carlos said, you have to force yourself through God Emperor, the 4th book, but it's really worthwile if just fo the 5th, Heretics of Dune. In my opinion the best of the six, if you really can just pick one out like that.

I say this, because the discussion revolved about the fremen in large parts. what found little mentioning is the second major player, which is as important, if not more, as the fremen: the bene gesserit. I think the BG got mentioned less, because the magnitude of their role really only becomes clear in books 4 to 6. basically it's what these books are all about. the fremen become less and less important in the latter books.

but both those player share a significant feature: religious zealotry (word?).
both, the tribe through paul and his jihad and the bg through all their reason for existence and their special training show a great amount of it.

I bet discussing the BG would make for another great thread, if someone cares enough to revive this.

what I also would like someone to discuss (carlos?) is the meaning of the Idaho ghola. I don't wanna spoil anything, but I have been fascinated in how the story shifts away from leto and the fremen to the bene gesserit and their gola, and I would reall like to hear someone else's opinion of that.

I for my part haven't really made up my mind. I read DUNE quite a while ago and I usually don't dwell in deep philosophical thoughts and interpretations about books but I love to hear others ramble about it.

on another, lighter note: isn;t Teg Miles just the coolest :cool:

bob
 
Symbolics in the Dune book

Hi there!,

I have just finished the book Dune and I wonder if any of you guys have read the book too and can explain a few symbolics in the book?

The thing is that I have just started reading books seriously and Dune particularly caught my eye because it is so huge in content and therefore so hard to comprehend in one piece.

I hope anyone can point me on a few things,

Thanks in advance
 
im glad you have read dune. Its a brilliant book. Unfortunatley im not clever enough to help you out on the synbolics but if you find the first one hard to comprehend wait until you get to the third and fourth ones. they'll really play with your mind.
 
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