bobbyburns
New Member
we don't pay you to think. in fact, we don't pay you at all ... count it.
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Thanksgiving Message
- Thread starter RichardLowry
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bobbyburns
New Member
that's what I want to hear.
RichardLowry
New Member
Fluffy et al,
I am serious. But those that have responded have missed the point. You cannot see the forrest for the trees. My point was that most Americans take their good fortune for granted and that we should be thankful for those who have fought and died for America.
Nowhere did I speak of God,
War is ALWAYS political, economic, and social. The fact remains -America is at war. I am from a planet where war has always been an ugly reality. What planet are you from?
Bobby, please tell me another point in history where the citizens of a nation were more free. Do you disageee with the statement that most Americans do not take their lives for ganted? This group proves more than ever that we are free to express ourselves. I don't know about you, but I'm not oppressed and I'm certainly not affraid. So, what do you think is "stupid?"
Ms. Enema - On this site I don't need to ask for opnions. I appears that they are provided quite liberally.
Glasgow, please explain fictional freedom. It appears that the Iraqi people are much better off today than they were two years ago, and if terrorists would cease their attacks, American and other soldiers could leave the Iraqi people in peace.
To tell you all the truth, I am shocked by your reaction. The point of the piece was that Americans should be more sensitive to their good fortune.
I apologize for invading your rabbit hole.
I am serious. But those that have responded have missed the point. You cannot see the forrest for the trees. My point was that most Americans take their good fortune for granted and that we should be thankful for those who have fought and died for America.
Nowhere did I speak of God,
War is ALWAYS political, economic, and social. The fact remains -America is at war. I am from a planet where war has always been an ugly reality. What planet are you from?
Bobby, please tell me another point in history where the citizens of a nation were more free. Do you disageee with the statement that most Americans do not take their lives for ganted? This group proves more than ever that we are free to express ourselves. I don't know about you, but I'm not oppressed and I'm certainly not affraid. So, what do you think is "stupid?"
Ms. Enema - On this site I don't need to ask for opnions. I appears that they are provided quite liberally.
Glasgow, please explain fictional freedom. It appears that the Iraqi people are much better off today than they were two years ago, and if terrorists would cease their attacks, American and other soldiers could leave the Iraqi people in peace.
To tell you all the truth, I am shocked by your reaction. The point of the piece was that Americans should be more sensitive to their good fortune.
I apologize for invading your rabbit hole.
Stewart
Active Member
RichardLowry said:
I take it by Glasgow you mean me.
I believe freedom, in the American sense, is nothing but a political buzzword, something GWB utters to get his gun nuts on board. It may have been a "land of the free" at one point in its time but it is not now - there is too much dependency.
Some Iraqi people may be much better off today but there are millions who are not since they have lost plenty of relatives due to shoot first, ask questions later gung ho activities. The recent shooting of a helpless/wounded Iraqi fighter further presses the wrongness of the gung ho attitude. And, like the American soldiers out in Iraq are deemed brave patriots for their part in the war effort we are repeatedly told that the actions of the "terrorists" are cowardly. Well, I don't view all these Iraqis still fighting today as terrorists - I view them as patriots; patriots fighting for their cause and not that of a government. It goes back to what I said earlier about freedom fighters - the US makes them and then won't let their countries go free. The Middle East wants free of the occupation that began in the 20s/30s when oil was discovered in Saudi Arabia. They are not fighting because, as GWB has said "they hate the American way of life" but because they want America out of the Middle East. Hence 9/11 and more.
I wasn't and that includes my reactions to the other Americans who have, thus far, responded. Europe these days has become a staunch non-supporter of American foreign policy. Although the UK is an ally and our British Soldiers (the Black Watch regiment) are out in Fallujah at the moment the only people that wanted them to go was the cabinet politicians. Over time, even some of them have resigned their positions in complete opposition to this ongoing event.
Indeed they should.
ctadams
New Member
Happy Thanksgiving
Setting aside politics (it gives me a headache!) I would like to wish each and everyone here plenty, happiness and joy for the holiday. I have an amazing amount to be thankful for this year. I hope you do too. I may not always agree with my country's leaders. But I love my country.
Cie
Setting aside politics (it gives me a headache!) I would like to wish each and everyone here plenty, happiness and joy for the holiday. I have an amazing amount to be thankful for this year. I hope you do too. I may not always agree with my country's leaders. But I love my country.
Cie
RichardLowry
New Member
hay82 said:
I really don't want to get in a discussion on world polotics because I know you will strongly disagree and the intent of my original post was to talk about the American holiday of Thanksgiving. We here in America have much to be thankful for and I hope that others in the world do too.
Saddam Hussein repeatedly demonstrated his violent tendencies toward his own people and his neighbors. After grabbing power he invaded Iran. Almost every major Iraqi attack in that war was preceded by a chemical attack. He ruthlessly killed Kurds in his own country with chemical weapons. After 11 long bloody years Iran and Iraq fought to a stalemate.
No sooner had Saddam stopped fighting Iran than he invaded his tiny neighbor, Kuwait. He raped and pilaged that country and only retreated after the US and the coalition threw him out. The UN imposed sanctions to contain Saddam. After many years, the containment was crumbling due to kickbacks and graft in the UN. It is just now coming out that Saddam was bribing individuals and countries.
It is my belief that if Saddam had not been deposed, UN sanctions would have completely broken down and Saddam would have reestablished his military powers. He would have reconstituted his military and attacked another neighbor, possibly even Isreal.
While I am not a big fan of Isreal, I beleive, as I hope you do as well, that if Isreal were to have been attacked by Saddam, they would have responded militarily. This would have thrown the entire region into war.
A middle eastern war would have destroyed the world economy and threatened the stability of America.
RichardLowry
New Member
Abulafia said:I take it by Glasgow you mean me.
Europe these days has become a staunch non-supporter of American foreign policy.
Then those Europeans have a very short memory. America sent her sons and daughters to Eurpoe - TWICE - to fight and die for your freedom.
RichardLowry
New Member
Yes they did and we are greatful for their help.
RichardLowry
New Member
Pardon my candor, but I am very confused. As an American, I truely believe that we are trying to make the world a safer place for all of us. I know that if I were to walk around my neighborhood, my city, my country and talk with people, 99% of them would think the same.
We, as Americans, believe in Freedom. Not just for ourselves, but for the entire world. I also believe that our government has the same agenda.
Why is it that there is so much hatred and distrust in the world regarding America? Help me understand your point of view.
We, as Americans, believe in Freedom. Not just for ourselves, but for the entire world. I also believe that our government has the same agenda.
Why is it that there is so much hatred and distrust in the world regarding America? Help me understand your point of view.
Stewart
Active Member
RichardLowry said:
We, in my opinion, perceive your government - especially in its current incarnation - as a naive land (by naive I mean no major historical event to that acts as a lesson) that will stop at nothing to throw its own ideals down the proverbial throats of other nations.
Sure, it would be good if other countries were "free" but it doesn't help just to walk in and install governments which are essentially to boost another nation's economy. They are "developing" countries because they have not yet reached our level of technological ability and forcing these sudden changes on nations only corrupts them - too much, too soon. The Iraqi people (cynically: the Iraqi people that were interviewed), when interviewed, claimed to not know what democracy was. If they don't know it shouldn't be forced upon them. From not knowing they are expected to turn out in national elections...without really understanding why they are voting! That's just madness. It opens up corruption which will let a puppet government run the country.
My opinion is that America - its industries and media - spend more time glossing the face of everything that, if you gave it just one little wipe, all the dirt and reality that lurks beneath would become visible.
On the more national level, it's just that your President is leading your nation into becoming a closed off state - more closed off than it already is. The complete unwillingness for diplomacy (thinking about Iran and maybe N. Korea) in the not too distant future) with actual countries and international societies means that while the majority of the world is advising one thing but America's politicians are just doing what they feel.
GWB is leading the country to ruin with his bowing down to huge corporations that pay his campaigns and creating military campaigns out of nothing. All the while these huge corporations are making more money by outsourcing their back offices (and sometimes customer facing inlets too) to "developing" countries such as China and India so these companies are making even more money all the while unemployment rises back home. That, unfortunately, is the same here. Regarding industry, the world is ridiculously polluted and pollution is getting worse yet of all the supposedly superpowere "developed" countries America is the only one unconcerned about the environment. America has always been fickle about things* and sometimes their attitude appears more selfish than anything else. It's extreme capitalist mentality has created a nation of greed.
Anyway, I think I've lost my steam for what I was saying so, to finish, going back to what I said about "developing" countries not being rushed China and India have slowly got there with our help. Infact, they will over take America et al as superpowers.
*An example being when agreeing an international buoyage system the rest of the world (nearly) agreed on a specific system but because the Russians were happy to join this international maritime law the Americans decided to make their own which was simply the inverse of the main one. So we now have IALA-A and IALA-B buoyage system - sorry to bore you there.
RichardLowry
New Member
okay
I decided to read everything before weighing in. First, thanks for those who extended a holiday wish for the few of us Americans on the board.
Richard, I don't think that any of us are going to understand the full extent of either side of this issue. The hatred of America has been growing very slowly for a very long time, but we've been oblivious. See, that's the whole problem -- America is oblivious to much of the rest of the world, and it annoys people. Nobody wants to believe that their troubles are beneath our notice, but unfortunately that really is the case with most Americans.
After all,
How dare Americans throw away food when people are starving? Well, because it never occurs to us NOT to. As a whole, we give away a lot more food than we consume every day. Farmers donated more than 1.3 BILLION pounds of food in 2003 for the hungry in other countries, and that doesn't include government sponsored gifts.
How dare Americans know only one language and insist that the rest of the world know theirs Please keep in mind that less than 25% of high schools in America even OFFER a foreign language. And NO middle schools or elementary schools offer them. No money in the budget.
How dare Americans not travel and learn other cultures The European concept of "holiday" is completely unknown to a majority of Americans. A really, REALLY good job will give a person a TOTAL of two weeks vacation a year, but most offer NONE. Zero, zip. Just 5-6 days a week, every week, with Thanksgiving and Christmas off. When would we go and how would we afford it?
How dare Americans not offer cradle-to-grave health care (although, in actuality, we really do offer just that. A sick person who shows up at a hospital is required by law to be treated, money or no; insurance or no. If they can't pay, the cost is eaten by the hospital. It's the primary reason for hospitals going broke and closing in this country. But doctor's offices ARE a problem, and prescription drugs. But what's not mentioned in the press is that most rural areas have "public health care nurse practitioners" that attend to children and the elderly on a weekly basis. It's set up in schools and senior centers. And all schools offer low-cost health care and free lunches to indigent children.
How dare Americans intervene in a country's affairs ONLY when it feels threatened (for whatever reason). There are conflicts all over the world, and if the Americans think they should be world police, then do so. But don't pick and choose one conflict over another. What most Europeans TRULY can't understand is that Americans have absolutely ZERO desire to occupy a country for longer than necessary. We don't want "colonies". We don't want "protectorates" Hell, we'd even love to give Puerto Rico back to the citizens, but they won't let us. It keeps getting turned down in their congress. We'd love for other countries to play nice with each other and us. Understand that WE DON'T WANT TO BE THERE! But with many European countries having a history of colonialism, they won't believe our statements of extreme distaste to even a hint of such a thing.
And through it all, Americans are oblivious. We live our lives, we raise our children and have no comprehension of anything beyond our neighborhood or country. We truly believe that we're doing right when we send in troops. We really do intend to help the Iraqi people, and the Afghans and plan to walk out just as soon as we can. But how do you help people who won't help themselves? That's the real trick. A local soldier reported that their biggest problem in an Iraqi community is convincing the residents to water the grass that soldiers laid in a soccer field donated to the town. They want to be PAID to water it, even though we dug the well and gave them them healthy grass and a hose. How do you fix that? Will there be elections in Iraq? Boy, I hope so, but at some point the Iraqis have to WANT their own government. They have to WANT peace. Wouldn't you think they'd be excited about the possibility? You can't make someone WANT to control their own destiny.
Are Americans inquiring about moving to Canada? Probably. That's their right. But it's not utopia there either. Nor is Europe. Think we have a deficit? Yeah, right. Take a look at Germany or Holland. At least ours is less than our annual gross national product. Ever heard of "Tax Freedom Day" in America? That's the day of the year when a person's ENTIRE paycheck is no longer considered to be donated to the government for funded programs. Know what day in 2004 that occurred? April 11th. The first 102 days of the year worked by every single American, no matter whether you earn $18,000 or $180,000 a year, goes to pay for government programs. You think the value of the dollar is low now? Tack on the taxes to pay for cradle-to-grave ANYTHING and watch the dollar be worth about what the Deutsch Mark was after WWII.
Americans got a hard lesson on 9/11. A lot of the world thinks we deserved it. That's hard for us to accept, because we don't think we did anything wrong. We've been oblivious, but not with malice. Give the average Joe on the street a break, please, huh?
Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving.
Cathy
Richard, I don't think that any of us are going to understand the full extent of either side of this issue. The hatred of America has been growing very slowly for a very long time, but we've been oblivious. See, that's the whole problem -- America is oblivious to much of the rest of the world, and it annoys people. Nobody wants to believe that their troubles are beneath our notice, but unfortunately that really is the case with most Americans.
After all,
How dare Americans throw away food when people are starving? Well, because it never occurs to us NOT to. As a whole, we give away a lot more food than we consume every day. Farmers donated more than 1.3 BILLION pounds of food in 2003 for the hungry in other countries, and that doesn't include government sponsored gifts.
How dare Americans know only one language and insist that the rest of the world know theirs Please keep in mind that less than 25% of high schools in America even OFFER a foreign language. And NO middle schools or elementary schools offer them. No money in the budget.
How dare Americans not travel and learn other cultures The European concept of "holiday" is completely unknown to a majority of Americans. A really, REALLY good job will give a person a TOTAL of two weeks vacation a year, but most offer NONE. Zero, zip. Just 5-6 days a week, every week, with Thanksgiving and Christmas off. When would we go and how would we afford it?
How dare Americans not offer cradle-to-grave health care (although, in actuality, we really do offer just that. A sick person who shows up at a hospital is required by law to be treated, money or no; insurance or no. If they can't pay, the cost is eaten by the hospital. It's the primary reason for hospitals going broke and closing in this country. But doctor's offices ARE a problem, and prescription drugs. But what's not mentioned in the press is that most rural areas have "public health care nurse practitioners" that attend to children and the elderly on a weekly basis. It's set up in schools and senior centers. And all schools offer low-cost health care and free lunches to indigent children.
How dare Americans intervene in a country's affairs ONLY when it feels threatened (for whatever reason). There are conflicts all over the world, and if the Americans think they should be world police, then do so. But don't pick and choose one conflict over another. What most Europeans TRULY can't understand is that Americans have absolutely ZERO desire to occupy a country for longer than necessary. We don't want "colonies". We don't want "protectorates" Hell, we'd even love to give Puerto Rico back to the citizens, but they won't let us. It keeps getting turned down in their congress. We'd love for other countries to play nice with each other and us. Understand that WE DON'T WANT TO BE THERE! But with many European countries having a history of colonialism, they won't believe our statements of extreme distaste to even a hint of such a thing.
And through it all, Americans are oblivious. We live our lives, we raise our children and have no comprehension of anything beyond our neighborhood or country. We truly believe that we're doing right when we send in troops. We really do intend to help the Iraqi people, and the Afghans and plan to walk out just as soon as we can. But how do you help people who won't help themselves? That's the real trick. A local soldier reported that their biggest problem in an Iraqi community is convincing the residents to water the grass that soldiers laid in a soccer field donated to the town. They want to be PAID to water it, even though we dug the well and gave them them healthy grass and a hose. How do you fix that? Will there be elections in Iraq? Boy, I hope so, but at some point the Iraqis have to WANT their own government. They have to WANT peace. Wouldn't you think they'd be excited about the possibility? You can't make someone WANT to control their own destiny.
Are Americans inquiring about moving to Canada? Probably. That's their right. But it's not utopia there either. Nor is Europe. Think we have a deficit? Yeah, right. Take a look at Germany or Holland. At least ours is less than our annual gross national product. Ever heard of "Tax Freedom Day" in America? That's the day of the year when a person's ENTIRE paycheck is no longer considered to be donated to the government for funded programs. Know what day in 2004 that occurred? April 11th. The first 102 days of the year worked by every single American, no matter whether you earn $18,000 or $180,000 a year, goes to pay for government programs. You think the value of the dollar is low now? Tack on the taxes to pay for cradle-to-grave ANYTHING and watch the dollar be worth about what the Deutsch Mark was after WWII.
Americans got a hard lesson on 9/11. A lot of the world thinks we deserved it. That's hard for us to accept, because we don't think we did anything wrong. We've been oblivious, but not with malice. Give the average Joe on the street a break, please, huh?
Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving.
Cathy
Stewart
Active Member
Cathy C said:
That's better. It's probably just me being nitpicky but when greetings are extended to others who don't celebrate/observe somehting I don't understand; hence my joke about Ramadan.
I suppose being one big country on one big bit of land with only Canada as a civilised neighbour is very remote and therefore it reflects on lifestyles.
Farmers donated more than 1.3 BILLION pounds of food in 2003 for the hungry in other countries, and that doesn't include government sponsored gifts.[/quote]
I wish charities would be merged (there's too many of them) - Oxfam, CARE, Medicin sans Frontieres, etc. all doing the same thing and the money put to proper use.
But with many European countries having a history of colonialism, they won't believe our statements of extreme distaste to even a hint of such a thing.[/quote]
Of course you don't want a colonialist empire - the original "Americans" fought against colonial rule. Nowadays currency is more important than land.
lol. Maybe Iraq will turn into a nation of entrepreneurs. That's enterprising for you.
Exactly.
They would need to have a concept of it. For many being ruled by dictation is the only thing they know; complete subservience to the State. It takes time to teach the opposing concept. You can't know what you want until you know if it.
Not "deserved" it but, to paraphrase you, were walking about with eyes closed oblivious to the rising tide of attacks in the Middle East. It was a make or break moment in America's history but the "elected" President turned his back on the world's sympathy - that's what the world really dislikes.
Cathy[/QUOTE]
fluffy bunny
Member
RichardLowry said:
I guess you misunderstood my post as I didn't elaborate. It wasn't about the people dying for America. It was twofold:
1) Thanksgiving originated as a way for shops to sell more stuff in this particular time period. To me it's just overcommercialisation.
2) You get a holiday. We don't. Lucky sods
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