Tom Wolfe-MFA programs don't create great writers

[SFG75]

TIME magazine has an interesting section in eveyr magazine called "10 questions" where questions are posed to newsmakers and celebrities. I found one with Tom Wolfe and you can read it here. I was somewhat taken aback by Wolfe's statement regarding the state of contemporary writing.

There's so little of it now that it's pathetic, and it's pathetic all over. Writers come from master-of-fine-arts programs now. If you add up the college education of Steinbeck, Hemingway and Faulkner, you get to spring break of freshman year.

It's human nature these to suppose that if you want to do anything, go to school and learn how to do it. Wolfe brings out an interesting point regarding the lack of an advanced education and writing. So, some questions to consider and I would be interested in learning of what our fine members here would say about Wolfe's observations.:flowers:

-Where are our writers like London who aren't in some prestigious MFA program, but rather,who are on an oil rig or crab fishing boat? Who follows that individualistic mode those days?

-For the thousands of MFA programs in writing, where are the great writers? Who are they?

-Does the imagination and distinct style of writing suffer through being molded and changed in a gauntlet style writing program?

 

[silverseason]

Ben Franklin and Mark Twain never finished the high school level of formal education.

Emily Dickinson had one year of college.

But those were different times and they fit into their times comforably, when higher levels of formal education were not expected and so their self esteem was not damaged. Could an aspiring writer ignore today's expectations?

 

[Heteronym]

Philip Roth has an M.A. in English Literature, and to me he's the best American writer alive today.

Could an aspiring writer ignore today's expectations?

I think the only thing people expect from a writer is that he write with quality.

 

[dele]

I've actually been thinking a lot about this lately. I went to university to study creative writing, but due to some unforeseen financial issues I had to leave after my first year. I've been working full-time ever since, and while I could have gone back to school a few years ago, I hesitated because I felt that I learned more from the real world than I could have in a lecture hall.

I know I'll never be a scholar now, and I'll never be able to dissect a literary text like my peers can, but that was never my goal to begin with. I've always wanted to write and tell a compelling story. I used to be naive little girl who couldn't create a "real" character to save my life, but my extra-curricular education over the last few years has opened my eyes and given me a lot to think about. I still feel a little rusty when I do occasionally sit down to write, but I feel that my potential is greater now than ever before.

So did leaving school help my writing career? Well no, not yet anyways. I'll give you an update after I've actually written something!

That being said, if money was no issue and relocating to be near a university wasn't an issue, I'd go back to school in a heartbeat.

 

[SFG75]

I've actually been thinking a lot about this lately. I went to university to study creative writing, but due to some unforeseen financial issues I had to leave after my first year. I've been working full-time ever since, and while I could have gone back to school a few years ago, I hesitated because I felt that I learned more from the real world than I could have in a lecture hall.

I know I'll never be a scholar now, and I'll never be able to dissect a literary text like my peers can, but that was never my goal to begin with. I've always wanted to write and tell a compelling story. I used to be naive little girl who couldn't create a "real" character to save my life, but my extra-curricular education over the last few years has opened my eyes and given me a lot to think about. I still feel a little rusty when I do occasionally sit down to write, but I feel that my potential is greater now than ever before.

So did leaving school help my writing career? Well no, not yet anyways. I'll give you an update after I've actually written something!

That being said, if money was no issue and relocating to be near a university wasn't an issue, I'd go back to school in a heartbeat.

At this point in time, a lot of the great writers didn't "progress" past where you are now in terms of education. A lot of them did odd jobs in order to suport themselves as they were engaged in writing(i.e.-Thoreau) Your experiences out and about with people and work would provide some interesting food for thought in regards to writing topics and in creating characters. Sometimes, that's hard to come by if you are chasing aphabet soup letters in order to obtain a teaching position at some state u or community college. In some respects, washing dishes isn't all that far removed from being an adjunct.

 

[dele]

At this point in time, a lot of the great writers didn't "progress" past where you are now in terms of education. A lot of them did odd jobs in order to suport themselves as they were engaged in writing(i.e.-Thoreau) Your experiences out and about with people and work would provide some interesting food for thought in regards to writing topics and in creating characters. Sometimes, that's hard to come by if you are chasing aphabet soup letters in order to obtain a teaching position at some state u or community college. In some respects, washing dishes isn't all that far removed from being an adjunct.

Thanks, I feel a bit better about that now! I just hope my decision to not pursue post-secondary doesn't come back to bit me...

 

[Lucifer]

... I hesitated because I felt that I learned more from the real world than I could have in a lecture hall.

...

I know I'll never be a scholar now, and I'll never be able to dissect a literary text like my peers can, but that was never my goal to begin with. I've always wanted to write and tell a compelling story.

I agree with dele here.
I too never had a liking for dissecting a work.
All I want is to enjoy the piece and grasp the writer's idea.

As to college, they teach you nothing but conformity with their set of ideas regarding what is creative and what is not.
As O' Henry wrote, 'colleges are sanatoriums for crank professors'.
Creativity cannot be bound by the definition given by the so called 'intellectuals', neither can it be taught.
It can only be developed by looking at common things in an uncommon way.

So just go ahead dele
write what you want to write..explore...dream...discover...

 

[Heteronym]

As to college, they teach you nothing but conformity...

Are you talking about college in general or just these writers' programs?

 

[AuntiePam]

I know diddly squat about MFA programs, but many of my favorite writers have backgrounds in journalism and law -- fields where the ability to write and communicate clearly is important.

Maybe good writing can't be taught in a classroom, but I'd argue that poor writing can be improved there.

 

[vclouds]

I know diddly squat about MFA programs, but many of my favorite writers have backgrounds in journalism and law -- fields where the ability to write and communicate clearly is important.

Maybe good writing can't be taught in a classroom, but I'd argue that poor writing can be improved there.

This is a good point.

As an aspiring writer myself, recently (May 2008) having graduated from a M.A. program in Creative Writing, I can only realistically say that my master's degree taught me three things, and none of them were directly related to the "creative" aspect of writing. My master's taught me how to write a better sentence, giving me the ability to craft my words more clearly. Closely related to that, the degree taught me better editing skills and gave me a more critical eye for my own work. Third, the program helped transform my sporadic writing ethic into something much more disciplined. I write more and more often because I learned how to push out words for deadlines.

As for helping me come up with stories or enhancing my creative style, the degree did nothing, and perhaps even retarded my progress. If I had it to do over again, knowing what I know now, I would never have gone to college. But then, hindsight, blah, blah, blah, and all that noise.

The issues that I have with college programs like the one I attended, or any of the M.F.A. programs, are twofold: one, the programs pretend to be real education, teaching would be writers "how to write," but do nothing for actually giving students meaningful things to write about, and I believe that content is usually more important than style. Secondly, writing programs enforce a high competitive environment upon students (students tend to actively compete for class and instructor recognition, rather than focusing on writing). This, combined with the fact that writing programs teach a "literary" rather than "popular" style of writing, a style that is so deeply entrenched in obscure literary theory so as to be useless or prohibitively dense for the general reading public, creates writers that have no sense of the greater world, especially since they spent so much time and energy on their degree that they have little actual life experience.

One of my professors, a man I greatly respect, by the name of Neal Bowers, spoke out about this very thing in an article he published in Poetry magazine in their July 1st, 2002 issue, entitled "University Poetry, Inc." It's a good read if you can track it down at your local library. Because it's copyrighted, I have no full online source to link. Although he's discussing poetry instead of fiction, the same issues we've been talking about in this thread apply.

 

[Heteronym]

As an aspiring writer myself, recently (May 2008) having graduated from a M.A. program in Creative Writing, I can only realistically say that my master's degree taught me three things, and none of them were directly related to the "creative" aspect of writing. My master's taught me how to write a better sentence, giving me the ability to craft my words more clearly. Closely related to that, the degree taught me better editing skills and gave me a more critical eye for my own work. Third, the program helped transform my sporadic writing ethic into something much more disciplined. I write more and more often because I learned how to push out words for deadlines.

I wonder if a writer who seriously contemplates the act of writing wouldn't intuitively labor on these aspects in order to improve. Not even the greatest of writers is born that way, but I assume there's an inner need that sets him apart from mere hobby writing.

 

[vclouds]

I wonder if a writer who seriously contemplates the act of writing wouldn't intuitively labor on these aspects in order to improve. Not even the greatest of writers is born that way, but I assume there's an inner need that sets him apart from mere hobby writing.

Probably, though deadlines can be tough for anyone trying to write. I feel a bit silly, to be honest, racking up student loans for someone to enforce deadlines for me, but there it is.

 

[Heteronym]

But isn't deadlines something the writer only has to be worried about after he's published his first work?

 

[vclouds]

Well, certainly, but getting things done in timely fashion is necessary to getting published in the first place, I think. If it takes someone twenty years to write a novel because he only works on it when he "feels like it" - well, he'll never publish more than one or two.

Maybe "deadline" wasn't the right word. Perhaps "work ethic" would be a better one.

 

[Heteronym]

But that's my point: a writer who has it in him the will to be a writer, will feel like writing at all times. Maybe I'm a Romantic, but I think a writer is a person for whom writing is the air he breathes: without it, he dies. If he can live without it, maybe he isn't really into it.

 

[vclouds]

But that's my point: a writer who has it in him the will to be a writer, will feel like writing at all times. Maybe I'm a Romantic, but I think a writer is a person for whom writing is the air he breathes: without it, he dies. If he can live without it, maybe he isn't really into it.

I think you're a romantic. That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that, in fact, I think the romantic idea of a writer is beautiful, I just don't think it's accurate.

I don't think you're completely wrong, either. Maybe many writers maybe do feel like that. However, I know that some don't, including famous published authors:

I saw an interview with Maragart Atwood (YouTube - Revelle Forum: Margaret Atwood) wherein she is asked if she has always enjoyed writing, or something of the like, and she replies in the negative. She says she doesn't particularly enjoy writing at all, she enjoys "having written." This is a completely different thing.

Also, from reading Stephen King's book "On Writing" I know that he gets up every morning, goes to his desk, and writes two-thousand words, every single day. He says sometimes it only takes him a few hours, and other times he's still working on it at 4 o'clock, but every day he has the discipline to do that. I imagine that S.K. is someone who enjoys writing, having so many published books, but still, every day, he forces himself to write, even when he doesn't feel like it. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

Those are just two examples I can think of off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are others.

In a third example, one that I'm loathe to use because it annoys me when unpublished writers pimp their work on the internet, I'm a writer. I've written a full novel, a novella, two poetry collections, and I'm working on a second novel right now. Out of all that only one poem is published, though the full manuscript of the first novel is being considered by and agent, and the novella is entered into the three-day novel contest.

Quite frankly, I hate writing. I hate sitting at the keyboard for hours on end, getting itchy feet every time a phrase doesn't turn out right. I want to get up and walk, wander around, maybe read a book just so I can avoid writing, but I do my best not to do it, which is why I have a decent body of work written, and I'm working on more. To be fair, when I'm working on something I am thinking about it constantly, it's in my head 24/7, ways I can tweak the story, or good details I can add, and I very much enjoy thinking about it. But the physical act of writing is awful.

So I guess personal experience is the root of my argument, and why I disagree with you. Maybe your experience is different, and that's fine. It's also possible we're talking cross-purposes, I'm talking more about the physical act of writing something, and maybe you mean more the "thinking and imagining" period, which is wonderful.

 

[Heteronym]

Quite frankly, I hate writing. I hate sitting at the keyboard for hours on end, getting itchy feet every time a phrase doesn't turn out right. I want to get up and walk, wander around, maybe read a book just so I can avoid writing, but I do my best not to do it, which is why I have a decent body of work written, and I'm working on more. To be fair, when I'm working on something I am thinking about it constantly, it's in my head 24/7, ways I can tweak the story, or good details I can add, and I very much enjoy thinking about it. But the physical act of writing is awful.

I can understand this, the anxiety of thinking everything you'll write will turn out awful, and wanting to avoid the act itself. But having the discipline to persevere anyway, I think that's a sign that you take writing seriously.

 

[SFG75]

Quite frankly, I hate writing. I hate sitting at the keyboard for hours on end, getting itchy feet every time a phrase doesn't turn out right. I want to get up and walk, wander around, maybe read a book just so I can avoid writing, but I do my best not to do it,

Do you find that there is a difference in how you write when you pick up a pen and a notepad, as opposed to typing on a keyboard? For me, if I'm writing a personal letter or penning something for work, the pen and paper method brings out better ideas and all around, better writing, as opposed to what I leave on a microsoft word document. Any thoughts?