U.K. 42 day detention plan

[ylris611203]

How are you going to convict a corpse?

Smoke and mirrors, and you're falling for it.

You seem quite good at the Smoke and mirrors thing........convict a corpse

As an example.......If you get information from, where-ever, about a planned bank robbery and you tell the police, they can wait inside the bank and catch the robbers red handed; they will have all the evidence they need and the robbers will be locked up for a couple of years with a colour telly, a playstation, all the drugs they want and three meals a day.


If you get information from, where-ever, about a planned suicide bombing and you tell the police; it would not be a good idea for them to wait until the bomber turns up with a bomb strapped to his back.

The police have to make an arrest well before the bombing is due to take place; they may not even have an exact date. They then have to gather enough evidence to make a conviction hold up in court otherwise the would be bombers walk free to try again. 28 days is a very short time to obtain enough evidence.

I would favour the thumb screws rather than the 42 days, but you would object to that as well, I guess.

As for your comments about ID cards............you are confusing terrorists with illegal immigrants.

 

[SFG75]

SFG75.......This is a typical guardian reader; words like 'bigot' are ten a penny to them and are slotted into most of their sentences

I will admit that the Rupert Murdoch rumination wasn't true, he in fact, owns the Times! However, I was not mistaken about the Daily Mail being a right wing paper. I don't know about the racism bent, but given it's history of supporting fascists in Britain, I believe it's entirely plausible.

In early 1934, Rothermere and the Mail were sympathetic to Oswald Mosley and the British Union of Fascists. Rothermere wrote an article, "Hurrah for the Blackshirts", in January 1934, in which he praised Mosley for his "sound, commonsense, Conservative doctrine"[6], though after the violence of the 1934 Olympia meeting involving the BUF, the Mail withdrew its support for Mosley.

Rothermere was a friend and supporter of both Benito Mussolini and Adolf Hitler, which influenced the Mail's political stance towards them up to 1939. During this period, it was the only British newspaper consistently to support the German Nazi Party.[7][8] Rothermere visited and corresponded with Hitler on many occasions. On 1 October 1938, Rothermere sent Hitler a telegram in support of Germany's invasion of the Sudetenland, and expressing the hope that 'Adolf the Great' would become a popular figure in Britain.

In 1937, the Mail's chief war correspondent, George Ward Price, to whom Mussolini once personally wrote in support of him and the newspaper, published a book, I Know These Dictators, in defence of Hitler and Mussolini.

Rothermere and the Mail supported Neville Chamberlain's policy of appeasement, particularly during the events leading up to the Munich Agreement. However, after the Nazi invasion of Prague in 1939, the Mail changed position and urged Chamberlain to prepare for war, not least, perhaps, because on account of its stance it had been threatened with closure by the British Government.[citation needed]

The paper continues to be referred to on occasion by critics as the Daily Heil, referring to its conservative stance and its past support for Mosley

The low-down

The Daily Heil.......that's too funny.

 

[ylris611203]

However, I was not mistaken about the Daily Mail being a right wing paper.

You say that as if being right wing is some how wrong.

I don't know about the racism bent, but given it's history of supporting fascists in Britain, I believe it's entirely plausible.

You are relying on almost seventy year old news to give some sort of credence to what is happening today. Your views are typical of those of the English left. The left today are just dead men walking. There is no way they will stay in power come the next election ...........the voting public have finally seen through them, the Mail has helped this process.

The Daily Heil.......that's too funny.

It's the looney left that think up churlish puns like that.

 

[Litany]

Wait. New Labour are left wing?

UK Parties 2008

 

[ylris611203]

Wait. New Labour are left wing?

UK Parties 2008

Not a very good Political Compass

 

[SFG75]

Chris-One of the basic rights an individual has in this world is the right of due process. That isn't something that can just be washed away, though it appears that some of the politicians in your nation....and mine for that matter...believe that to be the case. The Magna Charta wasn't meant to be a document that could be invalidated whenever leaders felt like it. The English Bill of Rights and other documents. The writ of habeus corpus isn't something that is followed if people feel like following it.

The terrorists have already won by getting us to do the one thing they couldn't-namely, to limit our freedoms. Their Lilliputian strategy has clearly won the day as overzealous politicians have, in their efforts, hamstrung freedom as we know it. In my country, the freedom of speech has been abridged repeatedly through "free speech zones" which ignores the fact that everywhere is a free speech zone. It exists outside of government and government ahs no right at all to dictate where that zone is. Our constitution and laws are about what government can not do. Your nation relies on more informal, agreed upon standards, but the beliefs are roughly the same.

What evidence exists that indefinite detention has produced one bit of good? Are you aware that the authorities can obtain warrants after the fact? The Bush administration believes that is too tight of a restriction on them.:blink: The authorities already have liberal use of surveillance equipment and can obtain the proper authority through the courts to safeguard you and I. It's when they no longer have to, that we all have to worry.:flowers:

 

[Sybarite]

Wait. New Labour are left wing?

UK Parties 2008

The Parliamentary Labour Party hasn't been left wing for years. The economics of the Blair and Brown governments have been essentially neo-liberal, favouring the market as the solution to all issues (health, education etc). Socially, there has been some progress (civil partnerships etc), but there have also been conservative pressures from the religious and extremist feminist elements within the Parliamentary party, resulting in censorious legislation such as (the extremely badly drafted) On possession of extreme pornography, which has recently passed into law and with the potential to introduce other censorious moves, including the criminalisation of all men (it only ever mentions men) who visit (female – because men are never prostitutes) prostitutes. It is also, as has been shown here, extremely controlling in terms of civil rights – similar to the US in recent years (and I can't imagine that Chris will claim that Dubya is a raving socialist), and following an essentially interventionist and imperialist foreign policy (at the behest of the US – see the comment above).

On a regional level, policies such as congestion charging are those of market economists – congesting charging, which was introduced in London by a Labour mayor, was the brainchild of Milton Friedman, the pet economist of both Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan.

<snip>

Excellent post, SFG75.

 

[ylris611203]

SFG-75. I guess you are correct in most of what you say BUT things are being blown out of proportion here.

There has to a compromise between 'basic rights of an individual' and basic safety an individual should expect. I expect the police to intercept a terrorist before he/she blows me up.

If having caught the suspected terrorist and the police can reasonably assume from the evidence they have that the person IS a terrorist, but they need more time to gather enough evidence to hold up in court, so that some fancy lawyer does not get his client off on a technicality, due to lack of evidence, then the police should have more time.

Our limit is 28 days. If 42 days is wrong then why is 28 not also wrong. In the US it is 48 hours which can be extended to 6 months on request and a further 6 months after that in some cases.

We have a problem here called politically correctness. A TV programme I watched this morning said that because of the present terrorist threat, 176,000 white males were stopped and searched last year; yet there has never been a white male terrorist. A complete waste of police recourses.

A small section of the general public may be inconvenienced because of the 42 days, because of who they are or how they look and they will have to get used to it, for now, for the greater good of the rest of us. It won't last for ever and then it will be another threat and a different section of the public will be inconvenienced. A few years ago if you spoke with an Irish accent you could well have been inconvenienced.


42-day terror detention: British public overwhelmingly in favour , poll shows - Telegraph

 

[Sybarite]

... Our limit is 28 days. If 42 days is wrong then why is 28 not also wrong. In the US it is 48 hours which can be extended to 6 months on request and a further 6 months after that in some cases...

If 28 days is too short a time, why? If 28 days is too short a time only for terrorism, why? You need to start asking those questions before you swallow (hilariously, as it happens) the government view of 42 days. Actually, it's priceless watching you, of all people, believe this government and fall over yourself to support Jacqui Smith et al on this proposal.

We have a problem here called politically correctness...

That'll be a US poster you're telling about a US invention, will it? Well done, Chris. :lol:

... yet there has never been a white male terrorist...

Oh dear. Oh deary me today. Keep up with the news, Chrisy boy. Not all those who have been charged with or convicted of terrorist offences have been 'darkies' with long beards. White Muslims have been arrested.

Honestly, you really need to stop that knee jerking. It's affecting your ability to think.

 

[ylris611203]

Oh dear. Oh deary me today. Keep up with the news, Chrisy boy. Not all those who have been charged with or convicted of terrorist offences have been 'darkies' with long beards. White Muslims have been arrested.
Honestly, you really need to stop that knee jerking. It's affecting your ability to think.

Can someone make sure that Sybarite takes her medication............her mind is wandering again, reading between the lines when there is nothing to read. :lol:

I have only repeted what was discussed this morning on The Matthew Right Show.

 

[Litany]

I have only repeted what was discussed this morning on The Matthew Right Show.

Then perhaps it's time you started fact checking before spouting off.

 

[Sybarite]

Can someone make sure that Sybarite takes her medication............her mind is wandering again, reading between the lines when there is nothing to read. :lol:

I have only repeted what was discussed this morning on The Matthew Right Show.

Then instead of being a gullible twerp who gets off on anything that supports his own bigotry, try checking the facts occasionally.

Try this for starters.

 

[Litany]

Oh noes! You used the B word. You must be a filthy Guardian reader. UNCLEAN!

 

[Sybarite]

Oh noes! You used the B word. You must be a filthy Guardian reader. UNCLEAN!

:devil:

And I also (easily and quickly) found a story from a reliable source to prove that Chris doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

[Litany]

Yeah, but it's not like he's going to read it.

BBC NEWS | Politics | David Davis resigns from Commons

He must be pretty conflicted right now though. He wants the loony left out and yet the tories are against 42 day detention.

 

[Sybarite]

:lol:

 

[ylris611203]

Yeah, but it's not like he's going to read it.

BBC NEWS | Politics | David Davis resigns from Commons

He must be pretty conflicted right now though. He wants the loony left out and yet the tories are against 42 day detention.

Well done Litany you managed to get two whole sentences together in one post, shame you've not got an option of your own to share. And poor old Sybarite has to resort to insults and they call this a mature discussion. :whistling:

Back to the debate. Try and keep up if you can.............Just because someone favours one political party doesn’t follow that they then agree with all that parties policies.

We have terrorist threats in the Uk. The 42 days are to hold suspected terrorists for longer that the 28 days we currently can. Gordon Brown is right about this.

David Davis is also right about Labour eroding our rights. What's to stop them increasing the 42 days to 90 in a few years.

The public want suspected terrorists held for as long as it takes, but they DON'T want the 42 days law used for any other suspected criminals.

The question you should ask is why won't the Government come out and say the 42 days is only to be used for suspected terrorists?

 

[Sybarite]

... And poor old Sybarite has to resort to insults and they call this a mature discussion. :whistling:

So you admit that you're a knee-jerking buffoon who spouts nonsense without checking facts, then?

... Back to the debate...

First of all, let's have some acknowledgement that you were wrong about the colour of terrorist suspects.

 

[beer good]

We have terrorist threats in the Uk. The 42 days are to hold suspected terrorists for longer that the 28 days we currently can. Gordon Brown is right about this.

David Davis is also right about Labour eroding our rights. What's to stop them increasing the 42 days to 90 in a few years.

But if increasing it from 28 to 42 means people are safer, then surely increasing it from 42 to 90 would make them even safer? Why would you be for one and against the other?

The question you should ask is why won't the Government come out and say the 42 days is only to be used for suspected terrorists?

I thought you said that

Unless you are a terrorist or associate with them I don't think you have much to worry about.

So which is it?

 

[ylris611203]

First of all, let's have some acknowledgement that you were wrong about the colour of terrorist suspects.

No I am NOT wrong. Now you say why you think I am.