August 2008: D.H. Lawrence: Sons And Lovers

[Ronny]

I thought the question was intent. There is nothing that I saw shows me that Walter's intent was to injure her.

No, I think what is being highlighted here is Gertrude's feeling for William. Don't forget that after she calmed down that she admited that it was
time.

I agree with the not liking either of these characters and I think that they both feed the family's dysfunction. They seem to go back and forth a lot at first with trying to please and trying to hurt each other.

Spoiler

Like when Gertrude was in labor and yet still worrying over Walter's meal. Or when he hurts her how he will be ashamed and try to make amends. With the hair cut I think he honestly didn't think about it, just came in and did it. I don't think he really wants to hurt the kids, he just does not think, he lashes out. There are times were he is supposedly proud of them or when they do things happily together such as making the fuses. But with him being a drunk and with so much hatred in the house I think he's destined to fail with his family, I would almost feel sorry for him, but he started out wrong footed, he lied to Gertrude from the start it seems. I don't like her though for staying and hating and rubbing his nose repeatedly in it.

 

[oskylad]

A theme throughout the book is flowers. In the first chapter, we see "the little garden at the Bottoms become fragrant.. Mrs Morel went out to look at the flowers and to breathe the evening."

Later, when she is locked out of he house, she becomes aware of the white lilies, white phlox and white roses that surround her in the darkness. She "drank in a deep draught of the scent [of the lilies]. It almost made her dizzy". "A few whiffs of the raw strong scent of the phlox invigorated her." The "fresh scent and cool, soft leaves [of the roses] reminded her of the morning-time and sunshine."

When she eventually re-entered the house, "she smiled faintly to see her face all smeared with the yellow dust of lilies."

 

[oskylad]

A theme throughout the book is flowers. In the first chapter, we see "the little garden at the Bottoms become fragrant. Mrs Morel went out to look at the flowers and to breathe the evening."

Later, when she is locked out of the house, she becomes aware of the white lilies, white phlox and white roses that surround her in the darkness. She "drank in a deep draught of the scent [of the lilies]. It almost made her dizzy". "A few whiffs of the raw strong scent of the phlox invigorated her." The "fresh scent and cool, soft leaves [of the roses] reminded her of the morning-time and sunshine".

When she eventually re-entered the house, "she smiled faintly to see her face all smeared with the yellow dust of lilies".

 

[Robert]

I agree with the not liking either of these characters and I think that they both feed the family's dysfunction. They seem to go back and forth a lot at first with trying to please and trying to hurt each other.

Spoiler

Like when Gertrude was in labor and yet still worrying over Walter's meal. Or when he hurts her how he will be ashamed and try to make amends. With the hair cut I think he honestly didn't think about it, just came in and did it. I don't think he really wants to hurt the kids, he just does not think, he lashes out. There are times were he is supposedly proud of them or when they do things happily together such as making the fuses. But with him being a drunk and with so much hatred in the house I think he's destined to fail with his family, I would almost feel sorry for him, but he started out wrong footed, he lied to Gertrude from the start it seems. I don't like her though for staying and hating and rubbing his nose repeatedly in it.

I wonder if her puritanical upbringing taught sin but left out forgiveness and understanding.

 

[Ronny]

A theme throughout the book is flowers. In the first chapter, we see "the little garden at the Bottoms become fragrant.. Mrs Morel went out to look at the flowers and to breathe the evening."

Later, when she is locked out of he house, she becomes aware of the white lilies, white phlox and white roses that surround her in the darkness. She "drank in a deep draught of the scent [of the lilies]. It almost made her dizzy". "A few whiffs of the raw strong scent of the phlox invigorated her." The "fresh scent and cool, soft leaves [of the roses] reminded her of the morning-time and sunshine."

When she eventually re-entered the house, "she smiled faintly to see her face all smeared with the yellow dust of lilies."

I didn't notice that before now that you mention it there's also the letters William cuts the flowers off for Paul to keep before he burns them.

 

[oskylad]

Oops. Didn't mean to post twice.

 

[oskylad]

I didn't notice that before now that you mention it there's also the letters William cuts the flowers off for Paul to keep before he burns them.

Wait until you get to the flowers in Part 2.

 

[Ronny]

I wonder if her puritanical upbringing taught sin but left out forgiveness and understanding.

Most likely, I've only read the first part and there is so little mention of her family in it, just her father's sternness and her sister's making William clothes. She also seems to just be a watcher, she does no seem to be able to pursue relationships well, not only does she have problems connecting with her husband and his family but she is not able to make friendships with her neighbors either it seems.

 

[Libra]

A theme throughout the book is flowers. In the first chapter, we see "the little garden at the Bottoms become fragrant.. Mrs Morel went out to look at the flowers and to breathe the evening."

Later, when she is locked out of he house, she becomes aware of the white lilies, white phlox and white roses that surround her in the darkness. She "drank in a deep draught of the scent [of the lilies]. It almost made her dizzy". "A few whiffs of the raw strong scent of the phlox invigorated her." The "fresh scent and cool, soft leaves [of the roses] reminded her of the morning-time and sunshine."

When she eventually re-entered the house, "she smiled faintly to see her face all smeared with the yellow dust of lilies."

Me being a big fan of Asian Lilies and Easter White Lilies , and also have them in my garden, understood every point of this discription.

 

[oskylad]

I wonder if her puritanical upbringing taught sin but left out forgiveness and understanding.

Her puritanical upbringing taught sin, but more importantly in this context it taught the need for thrift and delayed gratification. Walter was unable to live that way.

 

[Ronny]

Another part that made me dislike Gertrude was her treatment off the girl from the dance, that struck me as particularly and intentionally cruel and then she later claimed she forgot the whole episode when William asked her about it.

 

[Robert]

A theme throughout the book is flowers. In the first chapter, we see "the little garden at the Bottoms become fragrant. Mrs Morel went out to look at the flowers and to breathe the evening."

Later, when she is locked out of the house, she becomes aware of the white lilies, white phlox and white roses that surround her in the darkness. She "drank in a deep draught of the scent [of the lilies]. It almost made her dizzy". "A few whiffs of the raw strong scent of the phlox invigorated her." The "fresh scent and cool, soft leaves [of the roses] reminded her of the morning-time and sunshine".

When she eventually re-entered the house, "she smiled faintly to see her face all smeared with the yellow dust of lilies".

I hadn't considered it. Any idea what it means?

 

[Robert]

Another part that made me dislike Gertrude was her treatment off the girl from the dance, that struck me as particularly and intentionally cruel and then she later claimed she forgot the whole episode when William asked her about it.

I wonder if Gertrude was jealous of the girl?

 

[Libra]

I think they both got into a situation and didn't consider the differences between them.

The flower bit , maybe is shedding some beauty amongst all that ugliness.

 

[Ronny]

I wonder if Gertrude was jealous of the girl?

Well I think that was mostly it but she could have just said he was not there and made no more of it but she went out of her way to embarrass the girl. It just took her from being disappointed, judgmental and bitter to being cruel and dishonest in my view.

 

[Robert]

Well I think that was mostly it but she could have just said he was not there and made no more of it but she went out of her way to embarrass the girl. It just took her from being disappointed, judgmental and bitter to being cruel and dishonest in my view.

Gertrude didn't just embarrass her, she made sure the girl understood that she wasn't welcome.

 

[oskylad]

I hadn't considered [the theme of the flowers]. Any idea what it means?

I think the flowers are a sign of or substitute for love or desire. At the end of Chapter 1, the flowers are a substitute for the love the characters are unable to share. Later on, they become a sign of suppressed sensuality.

 

[gonewiththewind]

I think the flowers are a sign of or substitute for love or desire. At the end of Chapter 1, the flowers are a substitute for the love the characters are unable to share. Later on, they become a sign of suppressed sensuality.

I agree about the flowers being a substitute for love. I feel sorry for all these people. They are poor and have very human failings but they all long for a better world with love and beauty. I think that is why Gertrude is so angry. In her mind, she had another life planned for herself. When her husband lied about his financial position, it was a very big lie to her. It meant a life of an entirely different sort than what she had planned. To him, I think the lie was just a bit of an exageration. He starts out as much more easy going and I doubt he would have deprived her of what she wanted if he understood her better.

 

[Libra]

Another part that made me dislike Gertrude was her treatment off the girl from the dance, that struck me as particularly and intentionally cruel and then she later claimed she forgot the whole episode when William asked her about it.

That was mean.

I think Gertrude had this strong attachment with her son and just the thought of another woman taking her place in his life was hard.
It's like she was losing part of herself.
Her reason for living was the love of these boys, especially William because she didn't have a relationship ,as a loving couple, with her husband so all her attention, and love went to her son.

It is nothing surprising even now. Women stay with their husbands because of their children.

She does her duties as a wife, cooks ,mends, cleans , the kids, then waits on her drunkard husband to come home and maybe bring money and curse her off if she complains.

 

[irishclover011]

That was mean.

I think Gertrude had this strong attachment with her son and just the thought of another woman taking her place in his life was hard.
It's like she was losing part of herself.
Her reason for living was the love of these boys, especially William because she didn't have a relationship ,as a loving couple, with her husband so all her attention, and love went to her son.

It is nothing surprising even now. Women stay with their husbands because of their children.

She does her duties as a wife, cooks ,mends, cleans , the kids, then waits on her drunkard husband to come home and maybe bring money and curse her off if she complains.

I think that Gertrude regardless of her reason, and at times we could debate the sincerity of her concern for her children, does cruel things. She does them to the girl from the dance and Miriam too. I believe she loves her kids, but I think her actions and "feelings" have less to do with her children and more to do with herself. I agree that she felt shorted by life, and feels that her children are supposed to "fix" it for a lack of better phrasing.