Summer 2010: Fyodor Dostoevsky: The Brothers Karamazov

[Landslide]

Landslide, are we going to choose September's BOTM from the leftover books from the last poll?

Well, I think we should cause we reached a consensus with those books so we might as well stick to them. What do you guys think?

 

[Libra]

Well, I think we should cause we reached a consensus with those books so we might as well stick to them. What do you guys think?

Why not.

 

[SFG75]

I could see this book going for three or four months. I don't see how a person could blow through the book and make a post about "yeah, it was good, it had some moral stuff in it, but it was good." and be content with that kind of discussion, using the word lightly. Then again, I'm one that goes at a snail's pace and has to micro-analyze everything. Perhaps a middle ground can be reached? Enough for my two cents, lets have the other person who is reading this book go ahead and reply.:innocent:

As of now, I'm only 130 pages or so into it. The section on Smerydakov is eye opening. Just when I think I can't have any more contempt for F.D., he out does himself by molesting Lisaveta, and referring to his bastard child as "stupid" all of the time. As Smerydakov is a bit older, I found some humor in Dostoyevsky's referencing of "Balaam's Ass" as being Smerdaykov. The Old Testament story according to some sources, is God making fun of Balaam through his ass. Likewise, F.D. is getting a lesson from Smerdaykov and his unusually thoughtful comments that leave F.D. and Gregory confounded and resorting to calling Smerdaykov "stupid."

 

[Landslide]

SFG75 the discussion isn't limited to June/July/August. I would be very happy to see it go on for months. But that doesn't mean people who have already read it can't start reading and discussing other books. And the same is valid for anyone of the previous BOTM books.

 

[Libra]

I could see this book going for three or four months. I don't see how a person could blow through the book and make a post about "yeah, it was good, it had some moral stuff in it, but it was good." and be content with that kind of discussion, using the word lightly. Then again, I'm one that goes at a snail's pace and has to micro-analyze everything. Perhaps a middle ground can be reached? Enough for my two cents, lets have the other person who is reading this book go ahead and reply.:innocent:

who?lol

I agree with you,if you speed through it you will miss this amazing story and what went into it from the author.
I restarted and also did some reading up on it.It helped me get an idea of what Dostoevsky wanted to bring to this novel.

If you read the translators notes on Dostoevsky's letters,it gives you a taste of what this man was capable of doing as a write and if he hadn't passed away,how much more he would have done.
He jotted down many ideas.

He comes up with these characters,each one in their own personalities and ideas,with major issues of the time,such as (I forgot what the court that is mentioned that dealt with religious matters was called).

I will go to my notes,but I think the main thing that promted him with this novel was God,good versus evil,morals,and the human conscious.

 

[SFG75]

I will go to my notes,but I think the main thing that promted him with this novel was God,good versus evil,morals,and the human conscious.

The book is just loaded with theological issues, no doubt about that. Some recent examples of new pages that I've covered.

Alexey on Karamazov nihilism:

My brothers are destroying themselves," he went on, "My father, too. And they are destroying others with them. If it's 'the primitive force of the Karamazovs,' as Faither Paissy said the other day. A crude, unbridled, earthly force. Does teh spirit of God move above that force? Even that I don't know, I only know that I, too, am a Karamazov...

The theology of Ivan:

. . . there was an old sinner in the eighteenth century who declared that, if there were no God, he would have to be invented. . . what would be marvelous is not that God should really exist; the marvel is that such an idea, the idea of the necessity of God, could enter the head of such a savage vicious best as man.

All such questions are utterly inappropriate for am ind created with an idea of only three dimensions. And so I accept God and am glad to, and what's more I accept His wisdom, His purpose-which is completely beyond our knowledge.

. . . it's the world created by Him I don't and cannot accept. Let me make it plain. I believe like a child that suffering will be healed and made up for. I believe that all the humiliating absurdity of human contradictions will vanish like a mirage, like the despicable fabrication of the impotent and infinitely small Euclidian mind of man.

I agree Libra that morals and God have a lot to do with the book. The great part about this book is that it doesn't make a straight trajectory for the reader to know that the characters believe in God. For every line about religion, there is an action by the characters that negate the comment, or other comments that are qualifying remarks. Earlier before what I posted, Ivan is quoted as saying maybe

I don't believe in God

. The complexity of this issue for some people is what Dostoyevsky understood very clearly.

 

[Libra]

The book is just loaded with theological issues, no doubt about that. Some recent examples of new pages that I've covered.

Alexey on Karamazov nihilism:


The theology of Ivan:







I agree Libra that morals and God have a lot to do with the book. The great part about this book is that it doesn't make a straight trajectory for the reader to know that the characters believe in God. For every line about religion, there is an action by the characters that negate the comment, or other comments that are qualifying remarks. Earlier before what I posted, Ivan is quoted as saying maybe . The complexity of this issue for some people is what Dostoyevsky understood very clearly.

And it's proven in practically every quote you mention.Ivan is supposed to be the Atheist.I am way behind from you on my reading,but I will post my thoughts down anyways.I am bringing you back.lol

Fyodor Pavlovich Karamazov a person like this in my opinion,didn't know any better.Dostoyevsky was thinking of naming his last novel The Last Great Sinner,Fyodor Pavlovich Karamazov could be the main character of such a novel.We don't get much family history of him.Fyodor Karamazov is the base where the story starts.His actions spiral the begining of everything.

In the Elder's room where he was relaying a story:
"Your wife ,sir,is very ticklish..." that was hysterical,the more he spoke ,the deeper he was digging himself down.

 

[Libra]

Dmitri Fyodorovich Karamazov,(Mitya)the eldest,like it says in the book:

" he was the only one of the three who grew up in the belief that he possessed some property and when he would be of age he would be independent."

So,what did he do? as most anyone at his age with this knowledge would do.Drink,women and anything he could waste his money on.He was in debt by the time he came of age and here lies the begining of a conflict.


Ivan Fyodorovich Karamazov,the middle child,the Atheist.I think this will be the most interesting of the three in the book.Smart,independent,a thinker,quick witted. "He was timid,but it seems that already by the age of 10,he had become aware that they were living among strangers and other peoples charity,and their father was man one ought to be ashamed to talk about"The ground work for anger and hatred was already laid out for him.

Aleksey Fyodorovich KaramazovAlyosha,the youngest,but the hero of the story.I think Dostoyevsky put all his beliefs ,characteristics,and personal pains into him.First,because of him losing his own child to epilepsy,secondly because his beliefs and God.Goodness,kindness,faith etc .

 

[mrsfabrianni]

Kudos for choosing such a challenging book. I read it in university which is (ahem) a few moons ago.

I will definitely jump on board for September.

 

[Libra]

Kudos for choosing such a challenging book. I read it in university which is (ahem) a few moons ago.

I will definitely jump on board for September.

You can also jump aboard here.
Once you know the themes he wanted in this book,it's clearer and more enjoyable.

 

[mrsfabrianni]

I didn't make a comment about BK initially as my memory of it is sketchy. But I do remember intensely loving the character Smerdyakov (sp?). It was one of the few books in an insanely exhausting syllabus that I actually enjoyed.

 

[Libra]

Father Zosima was inspired by Tikhon of Zadonsk.He will have alot on his hands with Ivan I assume.

It was heartbreaking to read the story of the women who's three year old son died,another personal inspired story of the author,I can imagine the pain he was in while writing this.

Mrs. Khokhlakov's dialogue was interesting.
"Well,I say to myself,I've been believing all my life but what if I die and there is nothing at all"
Aren't people still struggling with this question?
"...and what will heppen is that,as one writer put it, *burdock will be growing on my grave* "... Dostoyevsky's humor once again,lol

btw,on my first post,it was ecclesiastical courts.

 

[SFG75]

It was heartbreaking to read the story of the women who's three year old son died,another personal inspired story of the author,I can imagine the pain he was in while writing this

.

F.D. was very good about painting a bleak picture and reality as it truly was. Perhaps that is the "Russian" way considering how life was so difficult back then. I was more struck by the "wisp of tow" and his family, especially the son who was bullied. His illness and subsequent death was something to read. Of course, his father played the typical stubborn peasant role to a "T."

Father Zossima's character gives some views that surprise you. In part III, book VII, he essentially commands Alyosha to spend the rest of his time in the world, as opposed to the solitary world of the monks. This is repeated in a few lines, but I failed to underline those quick enough.

I really enjoyed the background material on Father Z. The "mysterious stranger" whom he met gave a lot of good food for thought.

. . . the isolation that prevails everywhere, above all in our age-it has not fully developed, it has not reached its limit yet. For everyone strives to keep his individuality, everyone wants to secure the greatest possible fullness of life for himself. But meantime all his efforts result not in attaining funness of life but self-destruction, for instead of self-realization he ends by arriving at complete solitude. Mankind in our age is split up into units. Man keeps apart, each in his own groove; each one holds aloof, hides himself and hides what he has, from the rest. he ends by being repelled by others and repelling them. He heaps up riches by himself and thinks, How strong I am now and how secure.' And in his madness he does not understand the at the more he heaps up, the more he sinks into self-destructive impotence

.

Amazing section there.

And not to be outdone, Fyodor's profound thoughts on life.
:lol:

I believe that I fall asleep and don't wake up again, and that's all. You can pray for my soul if you like. And if you don't want to do, don't, damn you! That's my philosophy.

 

[SFG75]

Part three's book VII on Alyosha was a great read. In some ways, it reminded me of the temptation of Christ. Upon the death of Father Zossima, Alyosha is tempted by Rakitin taking him to the home of that brazen hussy Grushenka. Rakitin's counterfeit nature is laid bare as it is made clear that he had arranged the meeting intentionally with the desire to see Alyosha fall spiritually. The fact that he was gracious to Grushenka and she subsequently spilled the beans about the plot, was a humorous line to me, especially as Rakitin had to back peddle and explain away to Alyosha went had transpired. After this temptation, the best part was towards the end of book VII where Alyosha finally recognizes that he had put all of his faith into one person and that it was unrealistic of him to do so. He comes to discover a new reality that puts him at ease. I apologize for putting in a lot of quotes in my post, but there are so many good ones, I especially loved this one:

It was as though some idea had seized the sovereignty of hismind-and it was for all his life and forever and ever. he had fallen on the earth a weak soul, but he rose up in strength and he knew and felt it suddenly at hte very moment of his ecstasy. And never, never, all his life, did Alyosha forget that minute.

Book VIII's emphasis on Dmitri was something else to read. F.K. definitely had some attachment issues and was successful in creating a "wedge" between his girlfriend and her Polish officer that wanted to marry to her. Most disturbing was his attack on Gregory in the yard. The conversing with others with blood literally on his hands was an incredible scene, definitely a psychotic break if there ever was one. Wow.

Reading on......

 

[Libra]

.

F.D. was very good about painting a bleak picture and reality as it truly was. Perhaps that is the "Russian" way considering how life was so difficult back then. I was more struck by the "wisp of tow" and his family, especially the son who was bullied. His illness and subsequent death was something to read. Of course, his father played the typical stubborn peasant role to a "T."

Father Zossima's character gives some views that surprise you. In part III, book VII, he essentially commands Alyosha to spend the rest of his time in the world, as opposed to the solitary world of the monks. This is repeated in a few lines, but I failed to underline those quick enough.

Smerdyakov and the whole speach about God creating light on the fourth day...:lol::lol: Begining from there and all the other stuff he said ,Grigory almost had an anurism.

As for Zossima,not only did he tell him to leave the monastary,but also get married.

And what was all this kissing? It was weird,Katerina kissing Grushenka on the lips,then Aloysha to Ivan? I checked some articles,and they say it is the way to show respect,deep ,tue love? For a minute there I was starting to worry,lol

Dostoevsky being a believer,sure gave us alot food for thought with many opposite views from his.

I have alot on Ivan,I will be back.

 

[Libra]

So the plot escalates slowly.Smerdyakov a manipulator? planting suspicions of Mitya's hate for his father. Although Ivan detests him,he somehow can't avoid him.

 

[SFG75]

I made it to book XII. Yes, Smerdyakov killed F.K., but he maintains it was with Ivan's blessing. Section IX of book XI is titled "The devil. Ivan's nightmare" and it is very illuminating. You get strong hints about it advocating for a belief in God as Satan comes off as being a "realist" who doesn't believe in God either. Satan even tells Ivan that he has the same philosophy as Ivan does and Ivan is beside himself. This section might as well have been written by C.S. Lewis. As he is suffering a psychological break, Ivan may very well have been beside himself during this scene. I'm finding a lot of side resources about possible psychological diagnosis of the main characters, I will hold off on that for now as more details probably need flushing out.

Book XI's section 4 was another one that caught my attention. Dmitri's rant alluding to his dream reminded me a lot of the concept of Christ's crucifixion.

"Why is the babe so poor?" That was a sign to me at that moment. It's for the babe I'm going. Because we are all responsible for all. For all the 'babes,' for there are big children as well as little children. All are 'babes.' I go for all, because someone must go for all. I didn't kill father, but I've got to go. I accept it. It's all come to me here, here, within these peeling walls.

 

[Libra]

.

I really enjoyed the background material on Father Z. The "mysterious stranger" whom he met gave a lot of good food for thought.

I never expected it,blinded by love,he let his rage overtake his thinking."The truth will set you free" Confess your sins and be free.That's all I could think about while I was reading this.



“Listen: if everyone must suffer, in order to buy eternal harmony with their suffering, pray tell me what have children got to do with it? It’s quite incomprehensible why they should have to suffer, and why they should buy harmony with their suffering"

Ivan could not fathom that a God who loved mankind,would allow children to suffer.He could reason adults suffering for their sins,but believed children were too young to have sinned.
Sometimes a devastating and traumatic occurence ,like losing a child can either turn you towards God to find peace,or the complete opposite.

 

[SFG75]

I liked how Father Zossima steered Alyosha into the world, as opposed to the confines of the monastery. His death even provides a moment of growth for his young student as Alyosha recognizes that he idolized his elder and became too dependent on him. That is an easy tendency to fall into I suppose. It was only after he realized this, that Alyosha had a great breakthrough moment. I must admit, I chuckled after reading; "Oh, his elder stinks.":lol:

Libra-have you reached the part dealing with Kolya yet? For a 14 year old, he is rascally little thing. The story about Illusha was just heartbreaking, definitely an interesting tale of forgiveness and trying to make right in this world.

 

[Libra]

I liked how Father Zossima steered Alyosha into the world, as opposed to the confines of the monastery. His death even provides a moment of growth for his young student as Alyosha recognizes that he idolized his elder and became too dependent on him. That is an easy tendency to fall into I suppose. It was only after he realized this, that Alyosha had a great breakthrough moment. I must admit, I chuckled after reading; "Oh, his elder stinks.":lol:

It's sad how they turned on him isn't it?Even his own.They say ofcourse that if a body doesn't "stink" afterwards,he was saintly and this is what they were waiting for but didn't happen.

I think also that the author was trying to hint at that no one is above God.
Have you noticed that the seriousness of the subject/s, is somehow balanced by the humor? It does not take away from it though.

Libra-have you reached the part dealing with Kolya yet? For a 14 year old, he is rascally little thing. The story about Illusha was just heartbreaking, definitely an interesting tale of forgiveness and trying to make right in this world.

No,not yet.(I been painting)