Greatest Americans

[abecedarian]

To be sure. But some flaws are more unforgivable than others, and some hit closer to home.
It's not just Jews, by the way (though I am one). Any racism would bother me.

Racism should bother us all, regardless of the color or our skin. I have a problem with a certain feminist heroine, who's held in high esteem by lots of people who might be appalled to know she was a socialist and Nazi sympathizer. She was great friends with Limbergh, and thought that Jews and other "undesirables" , such as Blacks and the poor in America should be limited..her name was Margaret Sanger.

 

[novella]

Racism should bother us all, regardless of the color or our skin. I have a problem with a certain feminist heroine, who's held in high esteem by lots of people who might be appalled to know she was a socialist and Nazi sympathizer. She was great friends with Limbergh, and thought that Jews and other "undesirables" , such as Blacks and the poor in America should be limited..her name was Margaret Sanger.

That is all a lot of nonsense put together by various prolife propagandists. In fact, Sanger abhorred Hitler and Nazi Germany. Her own words speak for themselves:


“All the news from Germany is sad & horrible,” she wrote in 1933, “and to me more dangerous than any other war going on any where because it has so many good people who applaud the atrocities & claim its right. The sudden antagonism in Germany against the Jews & the vitriolic hatred of them is spreading underground here & is far more dangerous than the aggressive policy of the Japanese in Manchuria.”

She joined the American Council Against Nazi Propaganda and “gave money, my name and any influence I had with writers and others, to combat Hitler’s rise to power in Germany.” (“World War II and World Peace,” 1940)


People who want to associate Sanger with Hitler point to her support of legalizing abortion as some kind of genoicide comparable to Hitler's campaigns of murder. These are clearly two different things. Sanger never met Hitler, never voiced any support for the Nazis, never expressed anything anti-Semitic or racist. She did support the sterilization of the diseased and malformed, which may be regarded as terrible in today's light, but it's nowhere near the racist human engineering exercised by Hitler.

 

[abecedarian]

That is all a lot of nonsense put together by various prolife propagandists. In fact, Sanger abhorred Hitler and Nazi Germany. Her own words speak for themselves:


“All the news from Germany is sad & horrible,” she wrote in 1933, “and to me more dangerous than any other war going on any where because it has so many good people who applaud the atrocities & claim its right. The sudden antagonism in Germany against the Jews & the vitriolic hatred of them is spreading underground here & is far more dangerous than the aggressive policy of the Japanese in Manchuria.”

She joined the American Council Against Nazi Propaganda and “gave money, my name and any influence I had with writers and others, to combat Hitler’s rise to power in Germany.” (“World War II and World Peace,” 1940)


People who want to associate Sanger with Hitler point to her support of legalizing abortion as some kind of genoicide comparable to Hitler's campaigns of murder. These are clearly two different things. Sanger never met Hitler, never voiced any support for the Nazis, never expressed anything anti-Semitic or racist. She did support the sterilization of the diseased and malformed, which may be regarded as terrible in today's light, but it's nowhere near the racist human engineering exercised by Hitler.

To be fair, the source of my information is a book called Grand Illusions by George Grant, and he IS a pro-lifer. But that doesn't automatically mean his information is faulty. It has been many years since I read it, but I do remember it being well-documented, with various sources quoted.
I guess the point is one that someone has already mentioned; that all heroes suffer from the disease of being human, and therefore subject to faults and mistakes. Limbergh, Ford, Sanger, Washington, and yes, even Columbus, did wonderful things, but their feet were made of clay, just like the rest of us. We can value their contributions, and learn from their mistakes.

 

[leckert]

To be sure. But some flaws are more unforgivable than others, and some hit closer to home.
It's not just Jews, by the way (though I am one). Any racism would bother me.

I agree with you, Libre.

There is no place for anti-semitism, or predjudice towards any group of people for any reason.

Then the question may be whether a person's contributions to society or their accomplishments in their particular field be striken from our history books because of that person's unacceptable beliefs? Do their indescretions lessen the impact of their successes?

I am not being sarcastic here, I just think that, while he did own The Dearborn Independent, which was a highly controversial newspaper that published anti-Semitic articles, he also revolutionized manufacturing, employed thousands of people, and, in my opinion, created the automobile industry as we know it today. He built schools, he endeavored to better the lives of his workers, and used his factories to support the War Effort during WWII.

I think his contributions to American Industry should not be lost because he was a bigot. I could be wrong here, and I certainly don't intend to offend.

Maybe he should have given a thousand random people free Model T's?

 

[leckert]

In other words, I agree with abecadarian..!

 

[novella]

I think you mean Charles Lindbergh? Limberg is almost the cheese--Limburger-- which strangely went out of production for a generation and then magically reappeared. It's one of the only original American stinky cheeses.

 

[Libre]

"I guess the point is one that someone has already mentioned; that all heroes suffer from the disease of being human, and therefore subject to faults and mistakes. Limbergh, Ford, Sanger, Washington, and yes, even Columbus, did wonderful things, but their feet were made of clay, just like the rest of us. We can value their contributions, and learn from their mistakes."

That's why I have such huge admiration for Woody Guthrie. He seems to have resisted the descent into corruption that the powerful all seem to be guilty of, despite his fame. Not that he was perfect.
Read Bound For Glory.

 

[leckert]

I agree with you, too, Novella.

 

[novella]

IThen the question may be whether a person's contributions to society or their accomplishments in their particular field be striken from our history books because of that person's unacceptable beliefs? Do their indescretions lessen the impact of their successes?

I disagree: I think to answer the question "who are the greatest Americans in history?" I think you have to consider which values in America you value most highly.

Do you value free market capitalism most highly? Perhaps Henry Ford is your man.

Do you put more value on tolerance, human rights, and individual liberty? Then he is not your man.

All accomplishments are not equal. I think it's safe to say that someone would have eventually flown across the Atlantic. But can you equally say that someone eventually would have penned the magnificent Preamble to the Constitution?

 

[novella]

That's why I have such huge admiration for Woody Guthrie. He seems to have resisted the descent into corruption that the powerful all seem to be guilty of, despite his fame. Not that he was perfect.
Read Bound For Glory.

Pete Seeger's a pretty cool dude, too. He still does a lot of good work in the Hudson Valley, practices what he preaches, and lives very modestly.

 

[abecedarian]

As a white anglo-saxon Christian, racism and anti-semitism has never made any sense to me, specially coming from people who claim to be Christians. Having heard some pretty stupid arguements for white supremacy and against Jews, I have to assume those folks haven't read their big black Bibles. (Don't tell them but....Jesus had a Jewish mom!)But I have a slight advantage over some of those people in that I get to live in a society with the greatest accessiblity to accumulated knowledge in history. Even if I didn't, I can't judge those people who believe such nonsense, but I can learn from their achievements and most especially their goofs.

 

[StillILearn]

I'll see your Pete Seeger and raise you one Barbara Kingsolver, novella.

 

[StillILearn]

I do think she is attractive, and occasionally sexy, though!

Oprah has had the incomparable. what shall I call it (and perhaps only a woman could truly appreciate this), grace? guts, to allow American women to see her at her very physical worst. And, what's more, she's willingly done this on her very own TV program.

She has let us see her in her sports bra, hair sticking straight up, sweaty, makeup-less and just plain old defenselessly plain. Of her sexy, glamorous persona she says, "It's an illusion." And then she goes on to show us how she accomplishes the illusion. Never mind the cars and books -- this is generosity of spirit that goes beyond the pale.

I can't think what to compare this to in a man's world. (Somebody stop me before I nominate Phil Donohue.)

 

[abecedarian]

I can't think what to compare this to in a man's world. (Somebody stop me before I nominate Phil Donohue.)

NOOOOOOOOOOOO! Not Donohue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I understand leckerts dislike of Oprah; she's a little too good to be true in my mind too. But on the other hand, she DOES use her money to help others( and if it makes Oprah look good..). I do admire the way she uses her "clout" to draw attention to issues that need to be addressed. I don't watch her show, but as celebrity role models go, she's certainly not the worst of the breed.

 

[Libre]

Pete Seeger's a pretty cool dude, too. He still does a lot of good work in the Hudson Valley, practices what he preaches, and lives very modestly.

Yes, I have great admiration for Seeger too. But I can't see putting 2 folksingers on the greatest American heros list, so Guthrie edges him out.