Politics And Religion

[Stewart]

Let me begin, first of all, by clearly stating that this is not meant to be an incendiary thread. I do not wish to discuss specific aspects of either political or religious matters, despite the title of this thread.

An interesting observation that I've made, from being a member of a number of book discussion forums, is that The Book Forum is the only one that does not allow for political and religious discussion - many, in fact, have a specific forum for this. Fair enough, I say, because it's not my forum and the administrator can make whatever rules he likes. I may not agree with them but, to take part here, I have to agree with them.

I just want to know, without going into specifics, would you be offended by political and religious discussion? If so, would some perverted notion drive you to read the threads anyway?

 

[abecedarian]

I would not be offended by discussions of politics or religion, as long as all participants observed proper manners. We'd have to agree to disagree, and not sink into flamewars that serve no purpose other than venting one's sleen. Having said that, I can see why the owner of this forum and the mods have been so adamantly opposed to such an idea. Moderating would be a nightmare. I'd love to think that intelligent readers, of all people, should be able to discuss ANY topic in a calm manner, but history teaches otherwise.

 

[steffee]

If this is aimed at general TBF members, then no, I wouldn't be offended at all, with such threads. And no, if I happened to be offended, I wouldn't continue reading threads that I knew would cause further offense.

 

[Stewart]

If this is aimed at general TBF members

Yes, it is. I would hope, however, that it won't suffer from unnecessary interference.

 

[ruby]

I would certainly not be offended by political or religious discussions.
I wouldnt get involved in the discussion because i dont like to discuss these two subjects as they always end up in a massive row.
But i would still look at the post as i would find other peoples views interesting.

 

[steffee]

Yes, it is. I would hope, however, that it won't suffer from unnecessary interference.

Sorry

 

[SFG75]

The rules state things are o.k. if they are within the context of a given work. Look at the Pinter speech. The guy made an assertion and I posted contradictory information. What happened? The thread was closed. You can only have a one sided conversation if things of a political or religious nature are posted in regads to books, speeches, or plays. They are on topic if that is what the given work is about. If we have a politics/religion/philosophy thread, I see a lot more postings and folks carrying on about works that allude to all three. And let's be honest, do not a large number of works contain those subjects? What are you going to talk about in regards to disagreeing about the book Jarhead? How well it's written? Who published it? The design of the cover art??

 

[Stewart]

Sorry

I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to the heavy hand of moderation closing the thread down because it offended someone, a line used often but nobody ever comes forward to just come out and say it. This can be their chance.

I would also appreciate if the mods were to answer honestly without referring to the forum's rules; there's nothing specific here going against them. Their opinions on these topics are just as valid. Just because they are mods and are expected to uphold the forum's rules doesn't exclude them from having their own opinions beyond them. And anyway, we all know Wabbit is capable of posting both as a member and as a moderator.

 

[StillILearn]

If we agreed as to the parameters, it might not be a bad thing. For instance, if, instead of saying: "Okay let's take it outside, folks," we agreed to say: "Okay, let's take that one on over into the Religion and Politics thread," that might work.

As I have said elsewhere, I belong to a forum wherein almost all we talk about these days is politics. It started off differently, but it has evolved into a nearly all-politics thread. We do sometimes descend into screaming, fighting, (and sometimes flaming), and that will most certainly happen here also. The question is, can we take it? Without destroying our precious book discussions?

On second thoughts, I'm thinking that we'd be flirting with disaster, and we're aleady having enough trouble with our fears of censorship as it is. I guess maybe I'd have to vote "no" on this one. Or at least "not right now", anyway. Not the way things stand.

 

[StillILearn]

I'd love to think that intelligent readers, of all people, should be able to discuss ANY topic in a calm manner, but history teaches otherwise.

History and present day experience, abc.

 

[novella]

In fact, if you look at the archived threads at TBF, you will see that discussion of religion and politics happened a lot in the past and those discussions were civil, well-informed, and multifaceted. I can't think of a religion/politics discussion that devolved into slanging. The need to hang it on a book discussion now is a spurious requirement (and not even one that's respected now, as I myself experienced when introducing a book into such a thread), given the many many off-topic threads on the forum.

Most of the threads that, in the past, had rude and argumentative comments were threads without substance, with no subject--not books, religion, politics, or any other substantive topic. Just a lot of foul-mouthed ranting.

I don't see the harm in having a religion and politics area. People who are not interested would just not go there.

 

[SFG75]

In fact, if you look at the archived threads at TBF, you will see that discussion of religion and politics happened a lot in the past and those discussions were civil, well-informed, and multifaceted. I can't think of a religion/politics discussion that devolved into slanging. The need to hang it on a book discussion now is a spurious requirement (and not even one that's respected now, as I myself experienced when introducing a book into such a thread), given the many many off-topic threads on the forum.

Most of the threads that, in the past, had rude and argumentative comments were threads without substance, with no subject--not books, religion, politics, or any other substantive topic. Just a lot of foul-mouthed ranting.

I don't see the harm in having a religion and politics area. People who are not interested would just not go there.

Excellent post, especially the very last line. If that wouldn't work, have it be through a password that the moderator gives to an individual member who is interested in participating.

 

[Madeline]

Eventually your leaders, your country are brought into it, your church, your needs aren't met.

I was a mod way back when, and it seems like some people just go from forum to forum trying to stir up trouble. They can be banned, but can get back on. I don't think it's fair to the people that joined this Book Forum. And my opinion is, if there was a topic like that, people would look and it's hard to hold you tongue if there is a discussion about what one believes in. I just left a forum because the moderator made a remark about three things I base my life on.

I'm new to this forum, but been around since forums began, and was impressed with this one.

 

[novella]

Eventually your leaders, your country are brought into it, your church, your needs aren't met.

I was a mod way back when, and it seems like some people just go from forum to forum trying to stir up trouble. They can be banned, but can get back on. I don't think it's fair to the people that joined this Book Forum. And my opinion is, if there was a topic like that, people would look and it's hard to hold you tongue if there is a discussion about what one believes in. I just left a forum because the moderator made a remark about three things I base my life on.

I'm new to this forum, but been around since forums began, and was impressed with this one.

Hi Madeline,

Just as a matter of interest, why wouldn't you just not go to those threads if they upset you? Also, I think flamers from outside are instantly recognizable and dealt with accordingly.

 

[abecedarian]

I think we could talk about these topics if posters could restrain themselves from flip, off the cuff remarks like. "only morons believe_____." Or hipshots at any given Holy Book..
I came here knowing the diversity of the membership, and wanting to see what folks of diverse worldviews believe. If I wanted to talk only to people of my own sect(or whatever), I'd google to find them. The point of a forum like this is the diversity, but with it comes greater responsibilty to have something great.

 

[Peder]

For as long as I've been alive, the guidance has always been that in polite conversation it is best to avoid discussion of politics and religion (and sex). That of course means nothing, necessarily, but I offer it as a thought, for people to wonder why.

I happen to like the TBF prohibition on religion and politcs unless book related. That is also of course just one IMO.

I left one forum because it was so monomanic and flaming (with unconstrained vulgar language and all) for a single religious attitude and a single political view that one either kept one's mouth shut or got totally blasted by everyone. There was no discussing. And the ostensible purpose of the forum had nothing whatever to do with religion or politics, but rather only with film, TV, music and book/writing discussions.

In another large forum, there are separate threads for poltical discussion, and 24/7 they really have wild ones -- discussions, people and language! However, the same people come over into the book discussion threads and can't seem to hold themselves, so it gets unpleasant there too. And flaming is tolerated, despite the MA, which only makes it worse. I haven't been there in a long time. And I might add that one would estimate that they were intelligent and well-read people, not the floating bandits of the Internet.

So I guess that all comes down to the thought that a forum where people are willing to forego religious and political topics in any and all threads is the kind of calm forum that I like. Call it TBF.

One man's two cents,
Peder

 

[novella]

Peder,

I really respect your opinion on this. It reminds me that not everyone has the same level of emotional investment in these issues. I have a high tolerance for others' viewpoints, but we only need to think of the Cartoon Conflicts raging abroad to see that one man's humor is another man's mortal insult, and that can be sobering.

I'm always taken aback by others' sensitivity on these issues because my acquaintences in RL are, like me, relatively hardy and tolerant. There's very little you can say that offends an atheist from NY, except maybe regarding the Yankees or the Mets. (Can I just insert here that the Yankees suck? Can't miss an opportunity, can I? Any Yankee fan who would like to discuss can see me in the Baseball Brawls subthread, under the Undesireable Discussions rubric in Section 5c.)

 

[Peder]

Peder,
we only need to think of the Cartoon Conflicts raging abroad to see that one man's humor is another man's mortal insult, and that can be sobering.

Novella,
Thank you very much for your very kind reaction. I think yours, however, is the perfect example that suggests why it pays to be very cautious on any religious subject.
Peder

 

[muggle]

For as long as I've been alive, the guidance has always been that in polite conversation it is best to avoid discussion of politics and religion (and sex). That of course means nothing, necessarily, but I offer it as a thought, for people to wonder why.

I happen to like the TBF prohibition on religion and politcs unless book related. That is also of course just one IMO.

I left one forum because it was so monomanic and flaming (with unconstrained vulgar language and all) for a single religious attitude and a single political view that one either kept one's mouth shut or got totally blasted by everyone. There was no discussing. And the ostensible purpose of the forum had nothing whatever to do with religion or politics, but rather only with film, TV, music and book/writing discussions.

In another large forum, there are separate threads for poltical discussion, and 24/7 they really have wild ones -- discussions, people and language! However, the same people come over into the book discussion threads and can't seem to hold themselves, so it gets unpleasant there too. And flaming is tolerated, despite the MA, which only makes it worse. I haven't been there in a long time. And I might add that one would estimate that they were intelligent and well-read people, not the floating bandits of the Internet.

So I guess that all comes down to the thought that a forum where people are willing to forego religious and political topics in any and all threads is the kind of calm forum that I like. Call it TBF.
One man's two cents,
Peder

Actually, it is 2 men's 2 cents as I agree with you.

 

[Flowerdk4]

The rules state things are o.k. if they are within the context of a given work. Look at the Pinter speech. The guy made an assertion and I posted contradictory information. What happened? The thread was closed. You can only have a one sided conversation if things of a political or religious nature are posted in regads to books, speeches, or plays. They are on topic if that is what the given work is about. If we have a politics/religion/philosophy thread, I see a lot more postings and folks carrying on about works that allude to all three. And let's be honest, do not a large number of works contain those subjects? What are you going to talk about in regards to disagreeing about the book Jarhead? How well it's written? Who published it? The design of the cover art??

I agree! If a book or speech for that matter deals with the matter (politics and religion) then its hard to talk about it without getting into those aspects.
In the Pinter speech, the talk could have been about freedom of speech/press, propaganda etc etc., as the speech it self had so many different angles/ideas.

From time to time I cannot keep away from threads about politics. Recently I have discussed "The Muhammed cartoons" on another site. Why? Its an interesting topic as it both has politics, etics and religion, and it relates highly to Denmark where I live. The thread started out great. People exchanged ideas/viewpoints, I posted about the latest news as I am close to the source. But then other people came to the thread and it started to be about "who is worse" "my political side is better than yours" etc etc + they started to "throw links in each others head" as "prove" of who was right.
Like Peder has mentioned, a thread can turn ugly and not really worth the while reading. So it really has to do with peoples attitude when they discuss politics and religion. Are they open for a dialog? or do they have other agendas...

I think there are many books and films we cannot talk about as they deals with politics and religions on different levels. I would like to but cannot come up some rules that could help a thread from turning ugly.

Flower