-
Welcome
to BookAndReader! We LOVE books and hope you'll join us in sharing your favorites and experiences along with your love of reading with our community. Registering for our site is free and easy, just CLICK HERE!
Already a member and forgot your password? Click here.
Virginia Woolf
- Thread starter StillILearn
- Start date
abecedarian
Well-Known Member
I suppose if you look at it that way, you're right. How about I deserve to see a brilliant sunrise or sunset now and then? And if I deserve it, so do you and everyone else here!
Anamnesis
Active Member
I'll ask again:
For those of you that enjoyed Orlando, what was it about the book that you liked? Did you think it was well-written, were you intrigued by the characters, or did you think the book was well-plotted? I read Orlando several years ago (as mentioned before) and could barely finish the whole thing.
For those of you that enjoyed Orlando, what was it about the book that you liked? Did you think it was well-written, were you intrigued by the characters, or did you think the book was well-plotted? I read Orlando several years ago (as mentioned before) and could barely finish the whole thing.
Heteronym
New Member
Orland has extremely well-written, sensuous, poetic descriptions which makes Woolf's ordinary world mystical and brimming with life. As for Orlando, his/her ordeal crosses centuries and transcends genders, making him/her a fascinating window to analyse History and the world from several angles. It's also a damn funny adventure novel, although it kind of drags towards the end.
I have given up on To The Lighthouse. I didn't read much of it, but finally when I came to realise what the hell was going on, I wasn't very interested. It gave the impression it was going to be quite depressing. I didn't like any of the characters much, apart from James, the young lad, and it's obvious he's going to be let down in a really depressing way.
No stars for Virginia Woolf for me.
No stars for Virginia Woolf for me.
SFG75
Well-Known Member
Superb writer!
From a post I made on To The Lighthouse on another forum:
The foreward by Eudora Welty isn't to be missed. This is a very introspective piece and conflicts within the family are of central importance. I liked this line by Welty:
The father is truly something else, a warts and all kind of guy who raises his kids with true grit and disappointment. There have been countless like him through the years who have helped psychologists and therapists buy new cars and homes.
(page 4)
The language is very beautiful in regards to how people feel and what their hopes are. The hidden, but bright desire to reach the lighthouse is wonderfully written on the first page.
I've read a few summaries of the bok and the conflict between the Ramsey couple appears to be of central importance, though to me, that's too simplistic. Mrs. Ramsey's inner thoughts about him are especially vibrant and the descriptions leap at you from the page.
When re-reading the above quote, I'm reminded of Martin Buber and how this interaction cleary shows the "I-Thou" context of which he was speaking. Tansley's positive side embodied this to her, though his stiff, academic side is more characteristic of "I-It" whereby the "I" gives meaning to other people or objects, though "It" doesn't reflect the "I," furthermore, it's passive. From Buber's I And Thou.
To me, Tansley's deadness to sensation of the "Thou" and fascination with with the "It" is clearly shown in Woolf's passage where Tansley is walking with Mrs. Ramsey and boring her to death with academic speak and is dead to the nature around them. Her idea to have fun and to take in the circus repulses him and you almost pity the poor fellow.
Even more powerfully...
Excellent line here, reminds me of the awareness of "the other" that Sartre and others spoke of.
So far, so good in terms of readability. I wasn't that difficult as I thought it would be. You can tell that a plot(if it exists) is very fluid and disjointed. Clearly, impressions and feelings are very important here. A very concrete minded person would have a difficult time interpreting the opening, as well as picking up the more abstract meaning of the book.
From a post I made on To The Lighthouse on another forum:
The foreward by Eudora Welty isn't to be missed. This is a very introspective piece and conflicts within the family are of central importance. I liked this line by Welty:
The father is truly something else, a warts and all kind of guy who raises his kids with true grit and disappointment. There have been countless like him through the years who have helped psychologists and therapists buy new cars and homes.
(page 4)
The language is very beautiful in regards to how people feel and what their hopes are. The hidden, but bright desire to reach the lighthouse is wonderfully written on the first page.
I've read a few summaries of the bok and the conflict between the Ramsey couple appears to be of central importance, though to me, that's too simplistic. Mrs. Ramsey's inner thoughts about him are especially vibrant and the descriptions leap at you from the page.
When re-reading the above quote, I'm reminded of Martin Buber and how this interaction cleary shows the "I-Thou" context of which he was speaking. Tansley's positive side embodied this to her, though his stiff, academic side is more characteristic of "I-It" whereby the "I" gives meaning to other people or objects, though "It" doesn't reflect the "I," furthermore, it's passive. From Buber's I And Thou.
To me, Tansley's deadness to sensation of the "Thou" and fascination with with the "It" is clearly shown in Woolf's passage where Tansley is walking with Mrs. Ramsey and boring her to death with academic speak and is dead to the nature around them. Her idea to have fun and to take in the circus repulses him and you almost pity the poor fellow.
Even more powerfully...
Excellent line here, reminds me of the awareness of "the other" that Sartre and others spoke of.
So far, so good in terms of readability. I wasn't that difficult as I thought it would be. You can tell that a plot(if it exists) is very fluid and disjointed. Clearly, impressions and feelings are very important here. A very concrete minded person would have a difficult time interpreting the opening, as well as picking up the more abstract meaning of the book.
novella
Active Member
What the . . .?
Oh, SFG, I disagree with the entirety of this post.
First, Ramsey is not a ‘warts and all kind of guy.’ He’s the hero of the story. Haven’t you read the whole book? He walks like a god among everyone at the house, and they all project their insecurities and desires onto him. Each other character measures him or herself against Mr. Ramsey and what they imagine his life to be. He is the only self-contained character in the book, the only person who is not constantly changed by the moods of those around him. On the other hand, everyone else in the book, by turns, abhors and then adores him. He’s the Sun in their universe. Contrary to raising his children with 'true grit and disappointment' he sets the world right, with measured fatherly gestures.
Similarly, there is no ‘conflict’ between Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey. She allows herself to be utterly overwhelmed by every tiny gesture he makes, for better or worse, but that is her choice and the nature of their relationship. She is at his service, by her own choosing, not by anything he has done. He finds her wonderful and beautiful and she is at the core of his family life, something that he has chosen.
To me, the entire story behind the story, or the questions we should be asking is Who goes to the lighthouse , how, and why, and what is accomplished as a result? Who, in the cast of characters, is truly superficial and venal, socially porous, and full of clouded judgments, and who is true to him or her self?
Oh, SFG, I disagree with the entirety of this post.
First, Ramsey is not a ‘warts and all kind of guy.’ He’s the hero of the story. Haven’t you read the whole book? He walks like a god among everyone at the house, and they all project their insecurities and desires onto him. Each other character measures him or herself against Mr. Ramsey and what they imagine his life to be. He is the only self-contained character in the book, the only person who is not constantly changed by the moods of those around him. On the other hand, everyone else in the book, by turns, abhors and then adores him. He’s the Sun in their universe. Contrary to raising his children with 'true grit and disappointment' he sets the world right, with measured fatherly gestures.
Similarly, there is no ‘conflict’ between Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey. She allows herself to be utterly overwhelmed by every tiny gesture he makes, for better or worse, but that is her choice and the nature of their relationship. She is at his service, by her own choosing, not by anything he has done. He finds her wonderful and beautiful and she is at the core of his family life, something that he has chosen.
To me, the entire story behind the story, or the questions we should be asking is Who goes to the lighthouse , how, and why, and what is accomplished as a result? Who, in the cast of characters, is truly superficial and venal, socially porous, and full of clouded judgments, and who is true to him or her self?
SFG75
Well-Known Member
Oh, and I with yours.
Betwen all of the characters, there is an interesting "love-hate" dynamic. He is a dour and serious man who doesn't hesitate to step on feelings about visiting the light tower. On top of that, passages that I've quoted DO not show him as Mr. Rogers.
Oh yes, there is:
http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/lighthouse/themes.html
I could provide academic pieces on this, though I'll leave it to sparknotes as I don't have the time or patience to find past articles that I've found previously on this. I assure you that psycho-history and "Critical studies" pieces of a Freudian nature abound in the world that is known as the web.
The whole subjective meaning of reality, impermanence of life, and one's relation to that which is not always stable is a biggie.
novella
Active Member
It’s clear to me that you didn’t read the book. Perhaps just the beginning? Try to refrain from surfing around and gleaning other peoples’ ideas to substitute for your own lack. (That is the right place to put a smiley, isn't it?)
Also, you are missing the most basic point. To say this:
He is a dour and serious man who doesn't hesitate to step on feelings about visiting the light tower.
is to miss the central idea that this is one character’s perception in one moment and that perception changes markedly in the course of other small moments. There is no ‘portrayal’ of Ramsey as such, and the COMPLETE reading of the book shows you something entirely different.
Sparknotes? I would rather have MAD magazine’s critique of anything. Sparknotes is lowest-common-denominator high-school claptrap. Even when I WAS in high school I could see how lame those ‘critiques’ are.
A close reading of the text shows no constant conflict at all. She is, as I said before, alternately adoring and resentful, as is the case with most close relationships when looked at through the moment-to-moment inner voices of any individual. What Woolf gives us is not some generic idea about the relationship between the sexes, but the elusive, fleeting, and ephemeral world of inner thought (though we may perceive her ‘portrayals’ through characters’ actions).
(That is the right place to put a smiley, isn't it?)Also, you are missing the most basic point. To say this:
He is a dour and serious man who doesn't hesitate to step on feelings about visiting the light tower.
is to miss the central idea that this is one character’s perception in one moment and that perception changes markedly in the course of other small moments. There is no ‘portrayal’ of Ramsey as such, and the COMPLETE reading of the book shows you something entirely different.
Sparknotes? I would rather have MAD magazine’s critique of anything. Sparknotes is lowest-common-denominator high-school claptrap. Even when I WAS in high school I could see how lame those ‘critiques’ are.
A close reading of the text shows no constant conflict at all. She is, as I said before, alternately adoring and resentful, as is the case with most close relationships when looked at through the moment-to-moment inner voices of any individual. What Woolf gives us is not some generic idea about the relationship between the sexes, but the elusive, fleeting, and ephemeral world of inner thought (though we may perceive her ‘portrayals’ through characters’ actions).
SFG75
Well-Known Member
Your insulting "clear" comment was truly unneeded and can only be appreciated at other forums. I merely stated I disagreed, you have chosen to take it to the personal level.
First, you read my first response and completely ignored it, stating that I argued what I said was simplistic. Let's review.
r-e-a-d the following:
You then posted this:
Let's look at mine. Do I present it is my opnion, or that of "a few summaries"? If you mentioned the former, rather than the latter which you presumed in your first post in this thread, you would be correct. On top of that, I'll highlight the points that clearly show that you attribute the "conflict" to me, and not to the source. The conflicts mentioned do occur, though to draw out bigger things such as gender differences, role differences, as well as well as to what interests the individual characters follow in order to meet the ever elusive concrete sense of reality. Whether it's Tansley's spider-web academic elitism or art, each one of them in their own way, seeks a stability of sorts that is not there. The second section of the book truly shows how their attempts fared. Mrs. Ramsey's efforts come off better while Tansley and Mr. Ramsey's hope for acadmeic saint-hood have been tarnished.
Second, as for your last message, you once again, completely pick and chose what you responded to. Yes, "Spark notes" isn't a literary guide, but why was it that I said I posted it? Come on now, you darn well know why. I've typed it out once, the reason why you refuse to acknolwledge isn't out of a desire for conversation on the board, it's just to draw me out and to get me to react.
thirdly, the dour and serious comment does apply to him. He's a victorian figure, a man whose seriousness is historically accurate in regards as to how the proper male should act.
Are there moments where his wife and children love him?, but of course, and the young lady takes note of that later on. Even with the side of him that is lovable, the "dark" side is not something that can be swept under the rug or denied.
Lastly, the inner thought is important and you don't have my disagreement there. I've also acknowledge a "love-hate" dymanic that is between virtually all of the characters, but you haven't seen how that meshes with your "adoring-resentful" duality that you posted in response #2. No, it isn't about whose more daft or more intelligent in the end with a few surprises. It's about world views and how those world views fared in a subjective reality world where the only constant is change.
First, you read my first response and completely ignored it, stating that I argued what I said was simplistic. Let's review.
r-e-a-d the following:
You then posted this:
Let's look at mine. Do I present it is my opnion, or that of "a few summaries"? If you mentioned the former, rather than the latter which you presumed in your first post in this thread, you would be correct. On top of that, I'll highlight the points that clearly show that you attribute the "conflict" to me, and not to the source. The conflicts mentioned do occur, though to draw out bigger things such as gender differences, role differences, as well as well as to what interests the individual characters follow in order to meet the ever elusive concrete sense of reality. Whether it's Tansley's spider-web academic elitism or art, each one of them in their own way, seeks a stability of sorts that is not there. The second section of the book truly shows how their attempts fared. Mrs. Ramsey's efforts come off better while Tansley and Mr. Ramsey's hope for acadmeic saint-hood have been tarnished.
Second, as for your last message, you once again, completely pick and chose what you responded to. Yes, "Spark notes" isn't a literary guide, but why was it that I said I posted it? Come on now, you darn well know why. I've typed it out once, the reason why you refuse to acknolwledge isn't out of a desire for conversation on the board, it's just to draw me out and to get me to react.
thirdly, the dour and serious comment does apply to him. He's a victorian figure, a man whose seriousness is historically accurate in regards as to how the proper male should act.
Are there moments where his wife and children love him?, but of course, and the young lady takes note of that later on. Even with the side of him that is lovable, the "dark" side is not something that can be swept under the rug or denied.
Lastly, the inner thought is important and you don't have my disagreement there. I've also acknowledge a "love-hate" dymanic that is between virtually all of the characters, but you haven't seen how that meshes with your "adoring-resentful" duality that you posted in response #2. No, it isn't about whose more daft or more intelligent in the end with a few surprises. It's about world views and how those world views fared in a subjective reality world where the only constant is change.
novella
Active Member
SFG, why take such umbrage? How can you take such positions on a text you haven't even read? Coughing up a bunch of quotes from third-rate study guides is intellectually bankrupt, in the first place, but to put the whole hodgepodge forth as some kind of grounded opinion is just silly.
For me, the constantly open question of To the Lighthouse is how can the reader know any character at all, beyond the momentary reflections of the characters around them. Questions of character and self-knowledge (and of course how clouded one character's perceptions of others are) are wide open. For this reason, any judgment of a 'character' is immediately flawed by the source of that perception.
For me, the constantly open question of To the Lighthouse is how can the reader know any character at all, beyond the momentary reflections of the characters around them. Questions of character and self-knowledge (and of course how clouded one character's perceptions of others are) are wide open. For this reason, any judgment of a 'character' is immediately flawed by the source of that perception.
novella
Active Member
Uh, when you say "oh yes there is" above, and then go on to quote something to that effect, aren't you putting that quote forth as something you agree with? I attribute nothing to you here as necessarily original thought, but you are definitely agreeing with that particular quote.
I don't believe there's any alternative interpretation of your position.
SFG75
Well-Known Member
Constant conflict is a part of the story, but in and of itself, is not the whole story.
Now staying on task-Did you not make a gross mistake and attribute the "conflict" thing to me instead of the sources I mentioned? On top of that, sources that I said were too simplistic?
SFG75
Well-Known Member
You took this comment and slaughtered it entirely.
Your points of error were that:
1.)The opinion was mine, when in fact I said that I gained it from several summaries
2.)I did not hold the opinion that conflicts are in and of themselves, the main thing of importance, but that rather, that was too simplistic.
Nice dodge-now back to the question.
SFG75
Well-Known Member
No you didn't, you dodged it and didn't provide a straight forward answer.
You did attribute it to me by posting this:
By failing to mention that it was from other summaries, you have linked it to me in a de facto way, you have mistakenly attributed it to me.
Now-
The answer is yes, everything else is inconsequential until this is adequately dealt with. If the first misunderstanding on your part can't be cleared up, I doubt any of it will. I've posted before where we are more than alike in our interpretation. It's only your final conclusion that I take issue with. That, and the partial reading and subsequent posts about my statements that are inaccuate.